colintdesign

I posted last friday regarding a 73 raleigh supercourse that failed as I was riding. No crash, but load pop and the down tube did this. I stripped it of its original and upgraded parts and migrated them over to an 84 schwinn world that I picked up on craigslist. Waiting on a new fork so I can install the front brake, but I 've been riding it like this. Here are pics of both:::

cudak888 

A testament to the lazy, sloppy brazing that Raleigh did back then - the braze is only on the very tips of the lower lug (which snapped from the main lug).

-Kurt

dbakl

Dang, that's an example of some fine workmanship! Can't you just JB Weld it?

Hocam

I think if I ever shoot for an English bike it will be a Bob Jackson...

redneckwes

Am I insane in thinking that the steel parts could be cleaned up and re-brazed?? It only looks like a small part of the lug point snapped in the pic. It does look like a totally Sh.... incompetent brazing job though.

Charles Wahl

Monday morning bike. Check the serial number ;') I agree that it looks like it could be cleaned up and brazed correctly. If it were a bigger frame, I'd be begging it from OP.

Hocam

Rebrazing means repainting as well, which quickly gets expensive.

While you've got it hot you might as well replace the broken lug, a little more cost.

mikepoole

WARNING: thread hijack in progress


What's considered "back then"? Early 70s? What were contributing factors to the sloppiness?

cudak888 

Early/mid to late '70s (probably '73-75), on the SC's and up. I have no concrete proof of the cause, but I'd say the extreme production during the Bike Boom had something to do with it.

I have no scientific proof on this, but every Nottingham machine I've seen from this era have had some form of brazing that I didn't care for - mostly braze gaps under the lugs, such as this, but never to this extreme a form.

I would not trash the frame just yet though. Have someone braze it back in - sloppily if necessary - sand the rough split mark between the lug (either that, or sand the tabs off, and taper the remainder of the lug before re-brazing), and shoot some cheap primer down there. If nothing else, it'll be another frame saved for the future - there will be someone who can make use of it, even if it may be 50 years from now, and even if the bike isn't mint.

-Kurt

Charles Wahl

I've seen, here + on the CR mailing list, aspersions cast on Raleigh quality during the "bike boom" years. Same with Schwinn ("except my Paramount"), and just about every manufacturer except Richard Sachs, and the holy Italians. Reason: there was so much demand that the factories were overtaxed trying to get out as much product as they could. When the bike boom began and busted, I don't really know, but it had a center sometime in the mid-late 70s. Funny that we don't see more lugged steel from that era forsale -- I guess the answer is that the number of quality bikes didn't increase proportionally to the number of "reasonably-priced" bikes. Probably all the lower head lugs broke loose (unfunny falls-flat joke, apologies to OP colintdesign).

well biked

It looks to me like the frame has a significant rust problem.

cudak888 

The Holy Italians had a different problem - they'd commonly stuff the lugs chock full of brass until it oozed out of the joints.

Because where you see rust is where there was supposed to be brass filling in the gap. Without the brass, a gap was left, and bare metal was left under the paint for 30+ years to oxidize and be subject to whatever moisture could get in that gap. Obviously there'll be rust.

-Kurt

colintdesign

I have no interest in fixing this thing up. There looks to be quite a bit of internal rust in other places as well. I am salvaging the fork for another project. I may keep the cranks, but I don't have the tools to take them off. So the frame is up for grabs if anyone wants it. It is a 73. I don't really have to time or materials to box this thing up and ship, but if someone in the NYC area wants it just let me know.

Charles Wahl

Assuming you have square-tapered cranks with bolt-on arms: I work in Chelsea (live UWS) and would be happy to remove the cranks for you, or lend you the tool to do it. It takes about 5 minutes. Might as well save the BB too, if it spins smoothly.

I'd take the frame, but like I said, it's too small for me.

well biked

Who'd have guessed, huh Kurt?

mastershake916

What size are you looking for? I know of about a 58cm frame & fork with a really beautifully faded original orange paint job.

cudak888 

Stick an LED penlight down the end of one of your frames, then peer into the other end of the tube. Betcha you'll be buying a can of Frame Saver before long. Rarely have I run across a frame without a decent layer of surface rust inside (the one exception, my '91(?) Guerciotti).

In other words, a decent layer of surface rust inside a 30+ year old frame isn't uncommon. It might have, in a very small way, contributed to the problem, but was more then likely not to have been the main cause of the failure.

-Kurt

well biked

What are you talking about? I make an observation that the frame seems to have a rust problem, you give an unneeded tutorial on brazing technique. The OP says, sure enough, the frame has a rust problem, you come back with more unneeded advice. Whatever.

cudak888 

Unneeded to you!

If a frame splits a joint that obviously never had brass filled in the gap, well, that's a brazing problem in my book, rust or otherwise.

If you want to bother proving who's right about it, I suggest you post this picture on the Framebuilding forum. I'll bet that the general consensus will be that of lack of brass penetration, and the rust a cause of the bare metal being exposed in the gap.

However, I do not care to make an issue of it - you believe the problem is rust, and I respect that. Please do the same for me.

-Kurt

well biked

This will be my last post on the subject, so I'll anxiously await your pompous comeback. There's no reason to debate anything on the framebuilding forum, or anywhere else. Why? Because I don't disagree that it was a faulty brazing job, and I never did. I said what I said about the rust because it seemed to me that if there's that much rust there, there's likely to be a lot of rust elsewhere. Turns out I was right. You were going on about repairing the frame for posterity, etc., and I was simply pointing out that since I believed there's likely a rust problem, it's probably not worthwhile to even consider it. Just an opinion. Oh wait, are others besides Kurt allowed to have those around here? Again, whatever.

cudak888 

Might I point out who's opinion it is as to the usefulness of the "tutorial"?

Perhaps someone else might find my points interesting, educating, and useful.

I'm genuinely scratching my head as to what was "pompous" about it. It is only natural for someone to be defensive when contested.

-Kurt

colintdesign

Yikes! Well the failure in this case was due to bad brazing. Since there is a good amount of rust elsewhere and the frame is a little to small for me I won't be repairing.

evwxxx

I am in agreement with Kurt on this frame, it could easily be saved. First thing, submerge it in Oxalic Acid solution bath for 3-4 days, I guarantee rust will be gone. Then inspect carefully for pitting left by the rust to see if the integrety of the frame tubes are compromised. If only minor pitting or none, then have the failed lug joint re-brazed professionally (and inspect the other lugs as well), use Frame Saver on all the interior parts, and there you go! Now, the cost associated with all this may exceed the inherent value of that particular Raleigh Supercourse frame, but that is up to the owner, I suspect.

mgbguy

Tough crowd. It lasted 35 years. Quite a bit beyond the intended design life I'm sure.

cudak888 

That's another thing - I've been wondering just how many of those 35 years was it ridden? There might have been two small globs of braze between the head and down tube that held it together until they cracked.

Intended life span? Nah - hopefully, at the time, Nottingham hadn't succumbed to the "disposable" idea that is so prominent today, and didn't figure in the frame failing - if built correctly.

-Kurt