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Thread: I love 27"s...

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    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    I love 27"s...

    ...when on a bike intended for them (excuse the bad lighting):





    These beat-up Ukais are placeholders only for the rims that will ultimately be fitted to my '70 Paramount P-13 (yep, that's what Richard pulled up in the Providence Report).

    I mounted these today to please my eyes for a change; in other words, to do away with the 700C rims that were mounted upon it when I purchased the bike.

    That's not to say that I didn't like the Mavic Reflex rims that were on it; my gripe with them is that the 4mm of diameter lost on the 700C rims - even though a minute difference, theoretically - makes a heck of a difference, visually:





    No matter how subtle the effect, it appears as if the frame is slightly over-sized for the wheelset under it, while the wheelbase and TT length appear artificially long (almost "lowriderish", not to mention fender clearances look worse then a 29'er running 559's. With the 27"s however, everything just "fits" - wheelbase length looks perfect, the frame size in relation to the wheels does not look "funky," and tire clearances look just right.

    Just my little comments on my aversion to the 700C fad

    Take care,

    -Kurt
    Last edited by cudak888; 11-10-07 at 07:31 PM.

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    I know exactly what you mean. I tried one of the wheels from my Club Fuji (700x25) on my Miyata 310 (27x1 1/8) and it looked horrible, like Calista Flockhart wearing Kirstie Alley's dress.

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    Senior Member Lamplight's Avatar
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    On a larger frame, 700C with skinny tires sometimes look a little scrawny to me. I have no problems with the 27" size, it's just that I rarely find wheels in that size that are safely rideable. I do have a couple of decent sets, though.

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    Senior Member tjspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pompiere View Post
    I know exactly what you mean. I tried one of the wheels from my Club Fuji (700x25) on my Miyata 310 (27x1 1/8) and it looked horrible, like Calista Flockhart wearing Kirstie Alley's dress.
    I think it looks better with the 700c's
    If you're not riding with a psychedelic gecko on your shirt, you ARE having a substandard experience.

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    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamplight View Post
    On a larger frame, 700C with skinny tires sometimes look a little scrawny to me. I have no problems with the 27" size, it's just that I rarely find wheels in that size that are safely rideable. I do have a couple of decent sets, though.
    Skinny tires aren't my gripe so much as that of the wheel diameter itself. There are points to be made about proper tire width, but I won't go off on that tangent now.

    Curiously - what makes the reject 27"s in your piles "unsafe?"

    -Kurt

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    I've got a set of Raleigh 27" if anybody wants them.

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    Senior Member Lamplight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
    Skinny tires aren't my gripe so much as that of the wheel diameter itself. There are points to be made about proper tire width, but I won't go off on that tangent now.

    Curiously - what makes the reject 27"s in your piles "unsafe?"

    -Kurt
    What I mean about the tire width is that it can also add to the height of the whole package, and I like taller wheels on larger frames.

    My unsafe wheels are not things that couldn't be repaired, for the most part. Things like extremely loose spokes, rusty spokes, or just super cheap hubs, spokes, or rims. I have one decent set with the standard 27" Araya rims and Sunshine hubs that are like new. My good set has the same rims, but with a 40 spoke rear and 36 spoke front and some early '80s Suntour hubs with sealed cartridge bearing that are as smooth as butter. But they need to be trued properly which I've never done myself. I'm currently using the good set on my Univega touring bike.

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    Senior Member g-funk's Avatar
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    yeah yeah, nice wheels, beautiful bike, 27's are sweet. what's under the car cover, under the tent? I'm guessing Oldsmobile.

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    Dolce far niente bigbossman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbattle View Post
    I've got a set of Raleigh 27" if anybody wants them.
    PM sent......
    "Love is not the dying moan of a distant violin, itís the triumphant twang of a bedspring."

    S. J. Perelman

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    OK, I gotta bite - virtually all of the "good" bikes I remember back in the day had "28" inch tubulars which is 700C in modern parlance. And most gaspipe specials had 27". Not univerally true of course. My Panasonic is a decent bike and has 27" wheels but it's a touring bike and 27" was common for that usage. I also started a thread a while back asking whether anybody knew of any frames made in separate sizes for 27" vs. 700C and nobody said they knew of any. I'm not a Schwinn guy but did Paramounts not come with tubulars? And if there was an option between, say 28" tubulars or 27" clinchers (I think there was), was there actually any difference in the frame or fork? Sorry but I'm skeptical that there is such a thing as a frame designed for 27" wheels.

    My Bottecchia came with 28" tubulars and it now runs 700C clinchers and if anything they look too big (primarily because they're sized for a 200-lb middle-aged guy instead if a young 165-lb racer )
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    WNG
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    High quality 27" rims were offered alongside 700C. Some bikes did come spec-ed with 27".
    Cannondales initially came with 27" for their touring and road racing bikes.

    I run a set of 27" Ambrosio Durex Elite 19 rims with DT spokes and Campy Record hubs.

  12. #12
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kommisar89
    Sorry but I'm skeptical that there is such a thing as a frame designed for 27" wheels.
    I believe that many of the '60s road Paramounts were designed for 27" wheels. Upgrading to tubulars was an option and not a problem since they were spec'd with Weinmann centerpulls which had lots of reach.

    The Schwinn fillet brazed cromolly framed road bikes, i.e. Superior, Super Sport, and Sports Tourer, were definitely designed for 27" wheels. The height of the rear brake bridge and the clearance under the fork scream 27" and make using 700c wheels nearly impossible.

    Your statement might be dead-on for the European road bikes. Some had enough space for 27" wheels and thus were shipped to the U.S. in order to satisfy the preference for that size in the '60s-'70s.

    BTW, this could be a new sticky. Sources for high quality 27" tires. Especially the harder to find 27 X 1 and somewhat hard to find 27 1 1/8. As far as I can tell at this time, only Performance has the smaller size in their brand. The IRC Triathalons I like seem to be "out of stock" at every source I'm familiar with. I hope they will still be made.

    Kurt, the blue bar tape from Loose Screws looks great!

    Outside of looks
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    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamplight View Post
    What I mean about the tire width is that it can also add to the height of the whole package, and I like taller wheels on larger frames.

    My unsafe wheels are not things that couldn't be repaired, for the most part. Things like extremely loose spokes, rusty spokes, or just super cheap hubs, spokes, or rims. I have one decent set with the standard 27" Araya rims and Sunshine hubs that are like new. My good set has the same rims, but with a 40 spoke rear and 36 spoke front and some early '80s Suntour hubs with sealed cartridge bearing that are as smooth as butter. But they need to be trued properly which I've never done myself. I'm currently using the good set on my Univega touring bike.
    Ah, yes; the larger tires can be used to artificially add to the diameter of the rim.

    Any nice Mavic/Ambrosio/Rigida/etc hooked-bead 27" rims (36/36) in your pile? Need a pair for the Paramount.


    Quote Originally Posted by g-funk View Post
    yeah yeah, nice wheels, beautiful bike, 27's are sweet. what's under the car cover, under the tent? I'm guessing Oldsmobile.
    Try this on for size:



    Quote Originally Posted by Kommisar89 View Post
    OK, I gotta bite - virtually all of the "good" bikes I remember back in the day had "28" inch tubulars which is 700C in modern parlance. And most gaspipe specials had 27".
    27"s were primarily for touring machines - by the '80s, anyway - but a number of quality machines in the '70s ran the size - the Paramount being one of them. One could order the P-13 (the model above) with 27" clinchers or 700C tubies as desired. I, somehow, doubt the fact that mine ever came with the 700C tubulars, considering the excess of clearance under the brake bridge and fork crown. P-15s were always 27"; track models were, obviously, 700C.

    Not to mention that you could order whatever you wanted; if 27"s on a track frame were your style, it wouldn't be impossible to have a frame built to those specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
    BTW, this could be a new sticky. Sources for high quality 27" tires. Especially the harder to find 27 X 1 and somewhat hard to find 27 1 1/8. As far as I can tell at this time, only Performance has the smaller size in their brand. The IRC Triathalons I like seem to be "out of stock" at every source I'm familiar with. I hope they will still be made.

    Kurt, the blue bar tape from Loose Screws looks great!
    You know, if there was a steady source for the old Specialized Turbo clincher 27" tires, we probably wouldn't be looking for any other tires in those two sizes. The ones currently on the black anno rims you see on the Paramount are their 27X1 tire, and are probably the best riding clincher I've ever ridden on - reminds me of a silk sew-up.

    Thanks. Those bars and levers are destined for the '78 Guerciotti, while I intend to mount proper old-logo Cinellis (with red Velox tape) on the Paramount. By any chance, would you happen to have any old-logo Cinellis? (P.S.: Still have to send you something for the drop bolt - PM me again with what you're looking for).

    Take care,

    -Kurt
    Last edited by cudak888; 11-11-07 at 08:35 AM.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Lamplight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
    Any nice Mavic/Ambrosio/Rigida/etc hooked-bead 27" rims (36/36) in your pile? Need a pair for the Paramount.
    I'm afraid not. Many of the 27s I've come across have these same Arayas that I mentioned earlier, or something cheaper and crappier. The Arayas aren't bad, just nothing special.

    I'm using Panaracer Paselas with Tourgaurd on my Univega and they seem to be pretty good, but as far as I know they only come in a 27 x 1 1/4. That being said, they look pretty skinny compared to the 700C x 32mm Paselas on my Nishiki.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamplight View Post
    I'm using Panaracer Paselas with Tourgaurd on my Univega and they seem to be pretty good, but as far as I know they only come in a 27 x 1 1/4. That being said, they look pretty skinny compared to the 700C x 32mm Paselas on my Nishiki.
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/630.html

    ...reports that Michelin World Tour 27 x 1-1/4 tires are 33 mm wide. They are my next purchase this winter for the two bikes with 27's that I maintain.

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    Super Course fan redneckwes's Avatar
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    Those Michelins are the fattest 27 X 1/14 tire I have ever seen, if anything can cause tire clearence issues, it's them. They allmost look like 26 X 1-3/8 tires. They do however, ride very nice.
    http://bicyclenut.bravehost.com/Bicy...nt%20page.html

    The last two bikes on my list are a 50's Lenton Grand Prix and a '64 Raleigh Record.

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    I am the Eggman Mooo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
    ...


    You know, if there was a steady source for the old Specialized Turbo clincher 27" tires, we probably wouldn't be looking for any other tires in those two sizes. ...
    Ack. Pfft. It was the Specialized turbo clincher S that compelled me to go to tubulars for a number of years.

    My experience was horrible. Hard to install, hard to remove, prone to flats, an unrelenting, unforgiving ride, and it wore unforgivably quick (like 600 miles, at a time I was getting 3500 out of Specialized Touring II's and something like 2k out of the Wolbler Invulnerables that replaced the Turbo S).

    After the third flat in 600 miles, I noted that it had a noticeable flat spot on the tread so I threw it straight up in the air. A tree grabbed it, and for the next 15 years that tire served as a warning to other Specialized Turbos to keep clear.

    It killed the tree. Of that I am convinced. It would still be there otherwise.


    But you're right about the look of the bike, I think.

  18. #18
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mooo View Post
    Ack. Pfft. It was the Specialized turbo clincher S that compelled me to go to tubulars for a number of years.
    I'll agree on the point that they wear quickly, but I rather like them. I'm sorry to see that our experiences are not alike.

    Take care,

    -Kurt

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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
    One could order the P-13 (the model above) with 27" clinchers or 700C tubies as desired. I, somehow, doubt the fact that mine ever came with the 700C tubulars, considering the excess of clearance under the brake bridge and fork crown. P-15s were always 27"; track models were, obviously, 700C.
    Keep me straight here - a P-13 is the road racing model and a P-15 is the touring model right? So using the P-13 as an example, are you saying that if you ordered it with 27's or with 700's the frame/fork was actually different? Has anyone measured that? Now if the P-15 only came with 27's I'm more inclinded to believe it was designed for them, especially if it was a touring model.
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    Senior Member Lamplight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrmw View Post
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/630.html

    ...reports that Michelin World Tour 27 x 1-1/4 tires are 33 mm wide. They are my next purchase this winter for the two bikes with 27's that I maintain.
    You know, I just realized that my Varsity has those (they were on it when I got it), and they are definitely wider than the Paselas. Strange that they use the same width measurement.

  21. #21
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kommisar89 View Post
    Keep me straight here - a P-13 is the road racing model and a P-15 is the touring model right? So using the P-13 as an example, are you saying that if you ordered it with 27's or with 700's the frame/fork was actually different? Has anyone measured that? Now if the P-15 only came with 27's I'm more inclinded to believe it was designed for them, especially if it was a touring model.
    P-13: Road Racing Paramount. Frames could be anything from the genuine road racing model made for 700Cs (usually tubies) only, or a model made specifically for the larger 27" rims; essentially a P-15 with an NR rear derailer and double chainring, as opposed to the P-15's triple and long cage RD. Eyelets optional on all variants.

    P-15: Touring Paramount - made specifically for 27"s, and outfitted with an NR double and long-cage RD (either Valentino or Shimano). Eyeleted dropouts.

    P-10: Schwinn's new model number developed in 1973 for the 27"/double-chainring variants of the P-13 as explained before.

    If you're still confused, I woudn't worry much about it. At times, I wonder if the factory knew what they were doing themselves.

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    someone help me

    I LOVE MY 27"S TOO. and my old racer needs some love so i wanted to deck out at least the front wheel (due to no dishing and the overall simplicity in comparison to the back wheel) with shnazzy gold spokes, but i cant find any of them anywhere at all. and i need to see if there is some secret society building super cutty spokes for a 27" wheel!
    someone help me!

  23. #23
    Tilting with windmills txvintage's Avatar
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    I wish you luck in your quest.

    I just want to find red treaded or side walled 27" tires. Sadly, it's appears to be either gumwall or black.

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    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Looks like this thread was bumped out of the woodwork. Well, it gives me an excuse to show off the Paramount's new Mavic Module 3 27's w/IRC Roadwinner Duro II 27x1-1/8 tires:



    -Kurt

  25. #25
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    Oh la la! It does look nice! Now put some pedals on it and ride that baby!
    Bob
    Dreaming of Summertime in NH!

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