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Old 12-08-07, 05:20 PM   #1
KRhea
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Paramount HELP please...

Anyone have any info on the very early Paramount track bikes say mid-1940s. Found one just now and can't find any info anywhere on bikes this early.
I have serial number if that helps, don't think it does due to the infamous fire destroying all records.

Anyway, any idea as to a decent offer on say a c6 condition complete bike? Any and all immediate help is deeply appreciated.

Thanks
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Old 12-08-07, 05:24 PM   #2
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Waterford has some info that may help.

http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/c...para_early.php
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Old 12-08-07, 05:28 PM   #3
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Pics....!!

...or it didn't happen!

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Old 12-08-07, 05:46 PM   #4
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Big money would be fair.
Some info here:

http://chainedrevolution.com/CS/paramount_registry.aspx
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Old 12-08-07, 05:48 PM   #5
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Some info from Waterford on early serial numbers:

http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/c...ara_dating.php

More serial number information from Paramount Registry on Chained Revolution's website:

http://chainedrevolution.com/registr...paramount.aspx

Tom Findley has links to Schwinn catalogs:

http://www.trfindley.com/pg_schwinn_cats.htm
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Old 12-08-07, 05:52 PM   #6
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Guys, thanks so much for the incredible response! From the info I figured out it's a 1938 as the serial is A435. I'm on my way to make an offer now...

Stay tuned

Thanks again,
KRhea
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Old 12-08-07, 06:19 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by KRhea View Post
Guys, thanks so much for the incredible response! From the info I figured out it's a 1938 as the serial is A435. I'm on my way to make an offer now...

Stay tuned

Thanks again,
KRhea
Don't forget your moneybelt!
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Old 12-08-07, 06:29 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by KRhea View Post
Guys, thanks so much for the incredible response! From the info I figured out it's a 1938 as the serial is A435. I'm on my way to make an offer now...

Stay tuned

Thanks again,
KRhea

Well, I'm not sure that's true.

I have a Paramount track frame dated as 50s which also has an A number. Supposedly they just started over every year with the numbers, so I've been told, the old style Paramounts are impossible to date from the numbers, more by the details of construction and lug shapes, even though they're all pretty similar.

You should find someone who knows those bikes and get an expert opinion; a 1938 would be very early.

EDIT:Hmm, looking at this list, maybe I'm wrong. I'll have to look at my number.
http://chainedrevolution.com/registr...paramount.aspx
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Old 12-08-07, 06:31 PM   #9
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38 was the first year was it not?
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Old 12-08-07, 07:05 PM   #10
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38 was the first year was it not?
Yes, it was. The first Paramounts were built in 1938, but the first catalog featuring the Paramounts was in either late 1938 or 1939 since it features copies of letters from six day racers that are dated as late as April, 1938. That complete catalog is posted on Tom Findley's website:

http://www.trfindley.com/flschwinn_1893_1940/index.html, 1939_01 through 1939_20.
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Old 12-08-07, 07:21 PM   #11
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Pics....!!

...or it didn't happen!


Could it be this one posted today on craigslist?





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Old 12-08-07, 10:49 PM   #12
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More pics ...



http://www.schwinnbike.com/heritage/...chmentid=68336
http://www.schwinnbike.com/heritage/...chmentid=68338
http://www.schwinnbike.com/heritage/...chmentid=68339
http://www.schwinnbike.com/heritage/...chmentid=68341
http://www.schwinnbike.com/heritage/...chmentid=68342

Bob
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Old 12-09-07, 01:04 AM   #13
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Well guys, the price did not equal the condition for me to drop the coin. Cool bike and thanks again for the info, it was helpful.


KRhea
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Old 12-09-07, 03:38 AM   #14
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Well guys, the price did not equal the condition for me to drop the coin. Cool bike and thanks again for the info, it was helpful.


KRhea
I'd like to know the "vintage restorer" this guy had consulted... who is completely WRONG.

The wheels look to be late 60s to 1970s with one piece alloy shells. The machining numbers the seller refers to are probably the date coding numbers... on what here would appear to me to be the lower range Normandy "Sport" high flange hubs with small oval cut-outs. Earlier '60s high flange Normandy hubs had simple small round holes, and they eventually followed Campagnolo's lead of their all alloy Record hubs with (in that case, larger sized) oval cutouts which Campy introduced around 1960. Prior to that, 1950s and earlier racing hubs were 3-piece style with chromed steel barrels and alloy flanges. And the original 1930s-40s Paramount hubs had MUCH larger flanges than any hubs even from the 1950s.

The seat stay caps on any of the earlier Paramounts had rounded or "ball-ends" whereas this has flat angled caps. Check out the seat stays on this beautifully restored Paramount owned by Robert Clair for comparison. Note the hubs on this bike too.

I didn't compare the lugs too closely, but they do resemble the earlier Wastyn-style lugs. So maybe a 1950s frameset? And, this is one and here is another example both from the early 1950s, on the Waterford website, showing some early "Keyhole" style lugs used on a on a Paramount - before they went to Nervex lugs.

Down tube decal looks like the late 1960s to 1970s style, and there is no seat tube decal at all.

The head badge also looks wrong for the alleged era to me but I can't see it very clearly.

Really, nothing about the bike as a whole looks to be entirely "original" condition, as claimed. Could be a worthwhile restoration project, so long as you know what you're dealing with to begin with. And, since the frameset paint & decals are clearly NOT original. This would be a good candidate for a full restoration.

When people make lofty claims, they really need to do some homework. The extensive research this seller claims to have done seems to amount to perhaps looking a few photos of older bikes, but clearly without any eye for detail. I can quickly see many inaccuracies... And, I'm definitely NOT an expert on the Marque and don't even have the bike at hand.

The guy is just an Idiot. ... Sometimes this can result in a bargain buy, other times an absurdly inflated asking price.

Cheers,
Bob
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Old 12-09-07, 11:22 AM   #15
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Supposedly they just started over every year with the numbers, so I've been told, the old style Paramounts are impossible to date from the numbers
Maybe so. Or maybe these have become a valuable enough of a collectible that the Chinese are knocking them off, giving them various "patinas" so they look old and they are being sold as the real thing.

If I see another "432" out there from a seller that over values it and misrepresents it (see Chained Revolution's Registry), I may just begin to believe that.



Bob
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Old 12-09-07, 12:00 PM   #16
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My old Paramount track story:

About 20-25 years ago I saw an ad in the weekly shopper ads for "Italian race bikes" plus a bunch of other junk. I made an appointment with the guy and went to an old apartment building where he was cleaning out a storage room. The floor was ankle deep in old mail, newspapers and porno magazines and there were numerous boxes spilling out everywhere. The Italian bikes turned out to be low end, bike boom stuff, there were a couple, one a Bottechia as I recall, but nothing I was interested in.

But I spotted this bare frame stripped of paint and asked him about it. "Oh, that was my father's." I didn't know at the time it was an old Paramount, but I could tell it was something good. The paint had been stripped, looked like it had originally been red. I asked him if he had the parts. "Yeah, they should be here." We started digging. Eventually we turned up the frame with no fork, the original Paramount wheels with wood rims, the drive side Paramount crank, some funky pedals, another set of Paramount hubs, a set of Airlight hubs, and a complete English crankset and bottom bracket (which I had rechromed) and I think some track bars. There may have been some other, newer 10-speed parts as well, but I walked away with the frame, wheels and a cardboard box full of parts for 200. bucks.

A collector friend had a headset I bought, another had an ornate, Hetchins style round bladed fork that I put on. Eventually I located the Paramount stem on ebay and I have an old B17 that looks the part.

I had it all together before I had it painted dark blue as I've seen in pics, and I have a set of decals, but since its just been waiting for the rest of the parts. The Paramount branded parts are almost impossible to find, as is a fork. Any one have a Paramount seatpost and left Paramount crankarm?

Oh, mine has the slash cut seat stays btw. I can shoot pics and check the number if anyone is really interested.
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Old 12-09-07, 12:36 PM   #17
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Paramount parts? ...

These Paramount track hubs were at auction on eBay several years ago, being offered by a notable collector in the Boston area. They date from 1938, were New-Old-Stock, and they came with the original canisters shown here along with documentation indicating they had been given as prize awarded to the original owner - presumably a racer from the era. This set was also individually numbered (beyond the stock numbers on the boxes). The reserve was not met so the auction ended without a sale. High bid was $399.

I thought these were so beautiful and the history so amazing that I saved this auction photo.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...1&d=1197223847
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File Type: jpg Paramount hubs.jpg (19.0 KB, 31 views)
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Old 12-09-07, 12:50 PM   #18
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Paramount parts? ...
Yeah, all the parts were branded Schwinn or Paramount...
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Old 12-09-07, 03:36 PM   #19
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dbkal

Can we see pictures of your bike?

Terry
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Old 12-09-07, 05:19 PM   #20
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dbkal

Can we see pictures of your bike?

Terry

Yeah, I'll try and dig it out next week, its in pieces...
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Old 12-13-07, 02:43 AM   #21
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This is the same bike on Portland CL right, track for 1,200? The one Bob posted?

Quote:
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Guys, thanks so much for the incredible response! From the info I figured out it's a 1938 as the serial is A435.
But Bob shows a 432?

I'm confused... two early Paramounts for sale right now? And 432s are potential Chinese duplicates?!?!?
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Old 12-13-07, 07:03 AM   #22
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This is the same bike on Portland CL right, track for 1,200? The one Bob posted?


But Bob shows a 432?

I'm confused... two early Paramounts for sale right now? And 432s are potential Chinese duplicates?!?!?
The seller was posting on the Schwinn forum and seemed confused on the serial number. He listed it as #432 and #435. The moderators deleted his postings for some reason though (maybe because he referred to an outside sale, which is against the rules). I was kidding about the Chinese knock offs. The second bike with #432 just happens to be another bike that was listed earlier that was originally a '50s era tourist with '70s decals (similar to this one) that had be converted to a racer and the seller was proclaiming it to be from 1938 and asking $25,000 for it. I think the real reason for the same number is that Schwinn started numbering again at some point. Annually? (doesn't look like it) Different builders? (Wastyns vs. in house). Dunno ...

Bob
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