Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. #1
    Si se Puede!!!....Ahuevo! gr23932's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sepa la chingad....
    Posts
    1,115
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Motobecane...Model?? Vitus 172

    I got this bike yesterday for free. It came with a set of rollers I bought for 10 euros. Now, I know next to nothing about Motobecanes. I know someone here will know what I got. The guy who I bought the rollers and who also gave me this bike knew nothing about the bike, except that his son bought it at a flea market a few years back and set it up to be on the rollers I bought. I've done a little research on the tubing decal and it appears that Vitus 172 is not too shabby. I'm thinking it's a Gran Jubilee or Gran Record based on just the Vitus decal but I'm sure you'll straightened things out. The components on it are Huret and Weinnman. That's one thing that throws me off about what it is since the above mentioned models had better components. What year is it? Either way I think I scored and we shall see what's your guy's verdict.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.

  2. #2
    Si se Puede!!!....Ahuevo! gr23932's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sepa la chingad....
    Posts
    1,115
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Sorry for the crappy pics but I'm doing this on my lunch break with a camera phone.
    Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    264
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It looks to be maybe a Grand Touring. I think I see a triple crank. You have a later model... no earlier than 1980. It's probably a 1981 or 1982. The graphics are the clue here. Its a pretty good frame and worth fixing up.

    The Grand Jubile came with Huret Jubile components on it, hence the name. But later years came with Japanese components. Your Huret components were found on the mid to lower end Motobecanes of the 1980's.

    In the 1970's higher end Motos came with Huret or Campagnolo parts and lower end came with Japanese. In the 1980's the higher end bikes came with Japanese and Campagnolo parts and the mid to lower end models came with French parts.

  4. #4
    Si se Puede!!!....Ahuevo! gr23932's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sepa la chingad....
    Posts
    1,115
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by dbarnblatt@usa. View Post
    It looks to be maybe a Grand Touring. I think I see a triple crank. You have a later model... no earlier than 1980. It's probably a 1981 or 1982. The graphics are the clue here. Its a pretty good frame and worth fixing up.

    The Grand Jubile came with Huret Jubile components on it, hence the name. But later years came with Japanese components. Your Huret components were found on the mid to lower end Motobecanes of the 1980's.

    In the 1970's higher end Motos came with Huret or Campagnolo parts and lower end came with Japanese. In the 1980's the higher end bikes came with Japanese and Campagnolo parts and the mid to lower end models came with French parts.
    It has a double crank, but as I looked at it closer (as close as one can with an 8 month old sleeping in your arms) I noticed that it has a Campy record rear hub with a suntour freewheel. Also, I doubt it's an 80s model based on the lack of braze-on cable guides. Again, I have no clue to Motos, but the graphics also don't look to be that of a Gran Touring just from the scanned catalogs I've seen on the net. Take for example the pages I've attached; the Gran Record picture is the same color (except for the "stripes") as mine. It's a catalog from 1979. I haven't taken the wheels off to see what kind of drop outs it has, but I hope that they will help in identifying this bike. Here's the link:
    http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/mot...moto197911.pdf
    Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.

  5. #5
    Si se Puede!!!....Ahuevo! gr23932's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sepa la chingad....
    Posts
    1,115
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Oh yeah, does any one know when Motobecane started putting braze-on cable guides?
    Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.

  6. #6
    Old Skeptic stronglight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New Mexico, USA
    My Bikes
    19 road bikes & 1 Track bike
    Posts
    1,044
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gr23932 View Post
    Oh yeah, does any one know when Motobecane started putting braze-on cable guides?
    Depends on which model. According to the 1979 catalog they were already being used on the top models. Over time this trickled down to the lower range models too.

    I'd also be curious when they had first stopped using them. Through the 1950s and even into the early 1960s most bikes came with extensive braze-on guides. Then after Cinelli successfully got away with selling just totally stripped down frames with no useful braze-ons, gradually all the other manufacturers decided to save money as well and also began to skimp on these basics elements.

    Custom made bikes had never lost their braze-ons, and by the early 1980s people began to look for them as an indication of better made bikes... again.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    9,997
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    I'm leaning towards a Grand Record. As you point out, the bicycle should be pre-1979 by virtue of the top tube's cable clips. Also, of the three 1979 models using Vitus 172, only the Grand record has that decal scheme. I just happen to have a pics and specs for a 1978 Grand Touring and Grand Record (but no Grand Jubilee) and only the Grand Record uses that scheme, but it is still using cable tunnels, has bottle bosses and uses Cyclone derailleurs, so yours should pre-date that. It used Vitus 173 and those side-pull, Weinmann brakes. Your rear derailleur appears to be a Huret Eco, which came out in 1976. So, assuming it is original (are the shifters and front derailleur Huret?) and pending further evidence, the most likley candidate would appear to be a 1976 or 1977 Grand Record.

  8. #8
    Si se Puede!!!....Ahuevo! gr23932's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sepa la chingad....
    Posts
    1,115
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stronglight View Post
    Depends on which model. According to the 1979 catalog they were already being used on the top models.
    So my bike should be older than a 1979. Thanks.
    Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.

  9. #9
    Si se Puede!!!....Ahuevo! gr23932's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sepa la chingad....
    Posts
    1,115
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
    I'm leaning towards a Grand Record. As you point out, the bicycle should be pre-1979 by virtue of the top tube's cable clips. Also, of the three 1979 models using Vitus 172, only the Grand record has that decal scheme. I just happen to have a pics and specs for a 1978 Grand Touring and Grand Record (but no Grand Jubilee) and only the Grand Record uses that scheme, but it is still using cable tunnels, has bottle bosses and uses Cyclone derailleurs, so yours should pre-date that. It used Vitus 173 and those side-pull, Weinmann brakes. Your rear derailleur appears to be a Huret Eco, which came out in 1976. So, assuming it is original (are the shifters and front derailleur Huret?) and pending further evidence, the most likley candidate would appear to be a 1976 or 1977 Grand Record.
    Thanks T-mar,

    I knew you would chime in. The front dérailleur and shifters are also Huret. That is what throws me off. I thought that the Gran record came with higher quality components. I guess I should remove the wheels to see what kind of drop outs it has. Maybe that will help id-ing it.
    Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.

  10. #10
    Old Skeptic stronglight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New Mexico, USA
    My Bikes
    19 road bikes & 1 Track bike
    Posts
    1,044
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    That bike appears to have 1.) a Vitus frame - but not fork, 2.) Huret dropouts, 3.) Bocama Lugs, 4.) braze-on derailleur cable guides on the BB. These are on the 79 grand touring...
    BUT, that year/model also shows braze-on brake cable guides, and also different paint.

    My 76 catalog shows the Grand Touring as the only model with Vitus tubing, bocama lugs, Motobecane fork, clamp-on cable brake cable guides... but with generic Motobecane forged dropouts and fork tips and the older pattern paint, and also a different headbadge - on ALL the bikes.

    One good indication would be when they may have started using a headtube decal with a simple "M" - the 76 and earlier bikes had the riveted metal oval headbadge.

    So, I'd go for one of the 77-78 models.

  11. #11
    Si se Puede!!!....Ahuevo! gr23932's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sepa la chingad....
    Posts
    1,115
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stronglight View Post
    That bike appears to have 1.) a Vitus frame - but not fork, 2.) Huret dropouts, 3.) Bocama Lugs, 4.) braze-on derailleur cable guides on the BB. These are on the 79 grand touring...
    BUT, that year/model also shows braze-on brake cable guides, and also different paint.

    My 76 catalog shows the Grand Touring as the only model with Vitus tubing, bocama lugs, Motobecane fork, clamp-on cable brake cable guides... but with generic Motobecane forged dropouts and fork tips and the older pattern paint, and also a different headbadge - on ALL the bikes.

    One good indication would be when they may have started using a headtube decal with a simple "M" - the 76 and earlier bikes had the riveted metal oval headbadge.

    So, I'd go for one of the 77-78 models.
    Thanks for going out of your way to look things up. It does have a rear Huret dropouts, Im too lazy to remove the front wheel and it's counter to check that one (it's 2250 here). It does not have braze-on derailleur cable guides. It's a clamp on. I took a look at the rear derailleur and it reads "Made in France 2676". I guess the derailleur was made in 1976 but who knows if it was a "left over" part that was used to build this bike. Again thanks guys for the time you guys are spending in helping me out with this bike. For all your hard work I'm going to pour myself a Leffe and drink a couple for you guys.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by gr23932; 12-11-07 at 02:53 PM. Reason: Forgot pic
    Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.

  12. #12
    Si se Puede!!!....Ahuevo! gr23932's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sepa la chingad....
    Posts
    1,115
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Here's a 1977 example with the same decal scheme and headbadge as mine...but a higher quality model than mine. http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...Team+Champion/
    Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    9,997
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gr23932 View Post
    Thanks T-mar,

    ...the front dérailleur and shifters are also Huret. That is what throws me off. I thought that the Gran record came with higher quality components.
    There's nothing wrong with Huret, but the Eco is low end. Assuming a Grand Record or even Grand Touring, I also would have expected something better, which is why I asked about the front derailleur and shifters. But maybe it's not an Eco. The Success and Challenger had similar overall appearance but used primarily aluminum (and some titanium in the case of the Success). The pics look like like rusting steel and it doesn't have a barrel adjuster, which is way I said Eco.

    Quote Originally Posted by stronglight
    My 76 catalog shows the Grand Touring as the only model with Vitus tubing, bocama lugs, Motobecane fork, clamp-on cable brake cable guides... but with generic Motobecane forged dropouts and fork tips and the older pattern paint, and also a different headbadge - on ALL the bikes.
    Well, that would seem to narrow it down to 1977 as it doesn't match the 1978 Grand Touring or Grand Record, and while I don't have anything on a 1978 Grand Jubile(e), it was still using the old livery in 1979, which would also seem to eliminate the 1978 version.

    So the question is which model? There seems to be arguments both for and against it being a Grand Touring or Grand Record.

  14. #14
    Si se Puede!!!....Ahuevo! gr23932's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sepa la chingad....
    Posts
    1,115
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
    There's nothing wrong with Huret, but the Eco is low end. Assuming a Grand Record or even Grand Touring, I also would have expected something better, which is why I asked about the front derailleur and shifters. But maybe it's not an Eco. The Success and Challenger had similar overall appearance but used primarily aluminum (and some titanium in the case of the Success). The pics look like like rusting steel and it doesn't have a barrel adjuster, which is way I said Eco.



    Well, that would seem to narrow it down to 1977 as it doesn't match the 1978 Grand Touring or Grand Record, and while I don't have anything on a 1978 Grand Jubile(e), it was still using the old livery in 1979, which would also seem to eliminate the 1978 version.

    So the question is which model? There seems to be arguments both for and against it being a Grand Touring or Grand Record.
    I looked around and it seems that the rear derailleur is an Eco yet the shifters are Luxe. http://homepage3.nifty.com/passhunte...huret/rde1.htm It does appear it being a 1977 something??? I saw a thread on someone trying to build some sort of data base for Motobecanes and I PMed one person that posted there who has a 1977 Gran Touring. Hopefully he takes a peek at this thread and posts a pic of his 1977 Gran Touring so we can compare. Thanks again. Right now I wished that Belgians were just a bit taller as a whole or that I would of been the stereotypical height of a "normal" Mexican. Every bike I tend to get here is a 54 or smaller, and the ones that are my size usually tend to cost me more. I guess it's all the frites they eat.
    Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    7,283
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stronglight View Post
    That bike appears to have 1.) a Vitus frame - but not fork, 2.) Huret dropouts, 3.) Bocama Lugs, 4.) braze-on derailleur cable guides on the BB. These are on the 79 grand touring...
    BUT, that year/model also shows braze-on brake cable guides, and also different paint.

    My 76 catalog shows the Grand Touring as the only model with Vitus tubing, bocama lugs, Motobecane fork, clamp-on cable brake cable guides... but with generic Motobecane forged dropouts and fork tips and the older pattern paint, and also a different headbadge - on ALL the bikes.

    One good indication would be when they may have started using a headtube decal with a simple "M" - the 76 and earlier bikes had the riveted metal oval headbadge.

    So, I'd go for one of the 77-78 models.
    I don't think that "M" is the original head badge. I'd wager it's the "M" from the seat tube.

    Anyway, it's definitely not a 70s model with that paint job-- definitely a 1980s model. Moreover, the 1977 and 1978 Motobecanes also had the oval head badge. And the headbadge that replaced the ovel headbadge was rectangular-- not that "M," which as far as I know only came on the seat tube (but see my disclaimer below regarding European bikes).

    Another thought-- by the 1980s, the Grand Touring was no longer made with Vitus 172... But the Super Touring was.

    Either a Super Touring (it's got the same seat cluster as the Grand Touring, which might indicate that lineage) or Grand Jubile (if Grand Jubiles were still made with Vitus 172 in the 1980s). Maybe Grand Record, if the Grand Record was downgraded to Vitus by the 1980s.

    That Bailly designation is probably the key, come to think of it...

    One more thing, I just noticed the OP paid for the rollers in Euros. Hence, a European bike, and possibly a model we're not familiar with (e.g., that "Bailly" designation)...
    Last edited by Blue Order; 12-11-07 at 08:18 PM.

  16. #16
    Old Skeptic stronglight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New Mexico, USA
    My Bikes
    19 road bikes & 1 Track bike
    Posts
    1,044
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Order View Post
    I don't think that "M" is the original head badge. I'd wager it's the "M" from the seat tube.
    That Bailly designation is probably the key, come to think of it...

    One more thing, I just noticed the OP paid for the rollers in Euros. Hence, a European bike, and possibly a model we're not familiar with (e.g., that "Bailly" designation)...
    I love this detective work...

    I just noticed in the online 1979 catalog that the Grand Record, Le Champion and Team Champion bikes were already using that new graphics style on the bikes. And, the catalog was actually printed in July, 1978 for the next model year. Who knows when they actually started using the new graphics on the Continent.

    Also, I have seen models in Europe which were definitely never included in catalogs directed for the US import bikes. So, this indeed may have filled a niche between the models more familiar in the US.

    The "BAILLY" on the seat tube may have been simply a previous owner's name. I see in one of the photos there is "H. BAILLY" on the top tube as well... and it appears that it may be a sticker, perhaps attached much later.

    Always fascinating and educational reading BF threads!


  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    7,283
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I was thinking H. Bailly might have been a team rider, and this was either a team bike, or a model designated with than name in honor of H. Bailly, but haven't been able to find anything when I googled the name.

    But those lower-end components argue against that theory...

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    7,283
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Those "bum bars" don't offer much support for this being a high end team bike either...


  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    264
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm still convinced it's post 1980. A touring model of some sort. The graphics are definitely the clue. And as far as the braise ons. Motobecane held off for a long time before they started to use them on thier Mid to upper end bikes. All the lower end bikes had them (Super Mirage, Nobly, etc.) throuout the 1970's.

    Here is a 1976 Grand Record downtube... and they stayed with this look until 1977 or so when they changed the company downtube graphic to more modern style bock letters (example, from the 1979 catalog). They continued to use that graphic well through the 1980's. They added the banded graphics on the downtube and seattube around 1979 and later lost the banded style and added a plastic "Motobecane" badge on the top tube. It was during the early 1980's that they switched to the blue, white, red "M" headbadge.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by dbarnblatt@usa.; 12-12-07 at 12:50 AM. Reason: Better picture examples...

  20. #20
    Si se Puede!!!....Ahuevo! gr23932's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sepa la chingad....
    Posts
    1,115
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Never thought this Moto would be such a B in identifying. This bike is in Belgium, and it's customary or was for the owner to have a decal with his name on it or the LBS's decal on the bike. So, the name Bailly is more likely an owners name as someone already mentioned. I can't help but point out that the paint scheme on this bike seems to have been used before the 80s. I've seen a 1979 catalog, as did Stronglight, showing a Gran Record with those same decals. I've also seen a 1977 Team Champion with the exact "paint" job and decals and headbadge as mine. Also, that Team Champion did not have braze-on cable guides. Here is a the link to that bike again.
    http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...Team+Champion/

    Also, this might be a long shot but what if the componets are not original to the bike? Since this bike was bought at a flea market by the guy who gave it to me, it could of been stripped of what came on it originally before ge bought it. I'm only saying this becasue it has a Campagnolo Record rear hub. Just saying since I've read that some Gran Records came with Campy components. I really appreciate you guys helping me out with this bike since I know/knew nothing about Motobecanes till I got this one. All that I've mentioned came by way of the internet and from what you guys have shared; Reason number one why I love this forum!
    Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.

  21. #21
    Old Skeptic stronglight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New Mexico, USA
    My Bikes
    19 road bikes & 1 Track bike
    Posts
    1,044
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by dbarnblatt@usa. View Post
    I'm still convinced it's post 1980. A touring model of some sort. The graphics are definitely the clue. And as far as the braise ons. Motobecane held off for a long time before they started to use them on thier Mid to upper end bikes. All the lower end bikes had them (Super Mirage, Nobly, etc.) throuout the 1970's.

    Here is a 1976 Grand Record downtube... and they stayed with this look until 1977 or so when they changed the company downtube graphic to more modern style bock letters (example, from the 1979 catalog). They continued to use that graphic well through the 1980's. They added the banded graphics on the downtube and seattube around 1979 and later lost the banded style and added a plastic "Motobecane" badge on the top tube. It was during the early 1980's that they switched to the blue, white, red "M" headbadge.

    gr23932's original question was specifically about the use of 3 braze-on cable guides ABOVE the top tube - which are not present on his bike. This is a far more significant indicator than the paint ... whch was already seen on some of the bikes by the summer of 1978 and possibly earlier, anyway.

    By the 1979 model year Motobecane was already using the 3 braze-on top tube guides on ALL of their bikes. - It does not make sense to me that they would remove them again briefly around 1980 ... produce this bike ... and then go back to using the braze-on top tube guides again.

    So I'll still guess at 1977-78.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    9,997
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    I agree with Stronglight. Circa 1977 is my educted guess. As I stated earlier, I have pics and specs for the 1978 Gran Record. It uses the OP's paint/decal scheme and has the cable tunnels. The 1978 Grand Touring has the old paint/decals and the cable tunnels. Even the 1978 Le Champion and Team Champion have top tube cable tunnels, so cable clips would seem to indicate pre-1978. And we have evidence that the OP's paint/decal scheme was used in 1978 and 1979 on the Grand Record.

    Something else I just noticed is that the Grand Record is that it is the only one of the three 1979 Vitus 172 models with a fully painted fork, like the OP's frame. The 1979 Grand Jubile and Grand Touring have chromed fork tips. Looking at 1978, the Grand Record's fork is fully painted while the Grand Touring has chromed fork ends. If Stronglight's 1976 catalog shows chromed fork ends for the Grand Touring and Grand Jubile, then the fully painted fork and cable clips would point towards a 1977 Grand Record.

    Regardless, in the end, it is defintely a mid-range model and appears to be circa 1977.

  23. #23
    Si se Puede!!!....Ahuevo! gr23932's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sepa la chingad....
    Posts
    1,115
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
    Regardless, in the end, it is defintely a mid-range model and appears to be circa 1977.

    Thanks for info! I really don't mind not knowing the exact mosed since it's too small for me, but I'm glad you guys narrowed it down so fast. It will make someone happy I'm sure, just not me or my wife.
    Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •