crumbling

bmxbozo
What is the serial number on the u/s of the BB.
The reference to the frame being the same as the Takara Highlander made by corwin1968 is a fair comment. I did look for information on the Takara serial numbers but could not find anything as how to decipher the code.
These frames where made from the 1970`s by Nishiki is a brand of bicycles designed, specified, marketed and distributed by West Coast Cycle in the United States, initially manufactured by Kawamura Cycle Co. in Kobe, Japan. Schwinn is noted as a company supplied to.
This could be so
I have been away from this site for over a year being treated for cancer, much to get over, but all looks good,
Regards
crumbling (not so much now)

bmxbozo

Crumbling, hope you are better. My wife has been fighting cancer also.

My bike in storage. Will post S/N as soon as possible. Found some pics on my computer. Will add as soon as I figure out how.

bmxbozo

Lugged frame Cimarron

bmxbozo

[IMG][/IMG]

Schwinn Cimarron, lugged frame

bmxbozo

[IMG][/IMG]

Schwinn Cimarron

bmxbozo

[IMG][/IMG]

Cimarron Forks....

bmxbozo

[IMG][/IMG]

Cro-Mo Cimarron

bmxbozo

[IMG][/IMG]

Sealed Hub, Lugged Cimarron..

bmxbozo

Crumbling, hi again. Have serial # on my Cimarron and it is BS357553. It appears, to me, all the serial #'s are relative close. I will add some more photos soon and they will show the Cimarron decal on the top tube and it is clear enough to read.

crumbling

Bmxbozo
Thanks for the posting. The bike you have is the same as mine. The s/n is similar to mine and all the others I have seen. In all my searching I have not seen this type badged as a Cimarron
From Mombat the first Cimarron is described as a 1985 model and is part lugged and welded with BMX type forks.

"Schwinn decided to get a little more serious about mountain bikes in 1985 by introducing the Cimarron. The top and down tubes are ovalized at the head tube and fillet brazed. The seat lug and bottom bracket lug are lugged."
crumbling

bmxbozo

Hi crumbling. Like I indicated my bike is badged Cimarron. Have new computer but I will post pics of Cimarron decal on top bar, as soon as possible. Do you have a King Sting? Is it multiple or single speed. I have a tri moly 20" Sting that I am restoring.
Cheers....

bmxbozo

[/IMG]

Hi again crumbling. Is it your belief that our frames are of 1981 vintage? I sure would like to date them or at least be able to explain the mystery. Wish some others would chime in again, must be an answer out there somewhere.

Cheers.....

bmxbozo

Cimarron

Bikedued

Someone may have put Cimarron decals on one of these frames, but it isn't one unfortunately. Cimarrons started being made for the 1985 model year, and were completely different frame construction.,,,,BD

crumbling

bmxbozo
By the Schwinn dating system it is 1981 but others think 1983 by the advertisement in the BMX catalogue.The frame is definitely Japanese made but the format for the s/n is not the accepted Japanese format but the location is correct option. Variances in the Japanese format I cannot see. The story behind what happened with the supply of these frames can probably be only answered by employees of Schwinn at the time. I consider that would be within the BMX supply line and bare in mind the what was happening with Schwinn.
When I joined this forum I thought I had a King Sting in this frame. I obviously don`t as you don`t have a Cimarron.
crumbing not so much

crumbling

Back to the Takara Highlander frame that is identical to the Schwinn, I have checked with Kuwahara and I have been told these frames where not made by them as they stopped making frames for export in the late 1970`s and definitely not in 1980. They commented that they could have been made by Bridgestone but the s/n`s do not match with their format. The comment generally is the Takara was selling these bikes made by Kuwahara. By Kurahara`s statement they either did not make them at that time, 1983. Another thought I have is that as these frames where being sold by Schwinn in 1983 and Takara bought them and sold them as the Highlander.
crumbling

Hummer

This is a long and ongoning thread. It is great to see this collaberation.

I would like to add my two cents worth of observations and information on some of the points of discussion.

1. First an observation about Schwinn and its first mountain bikes.
When Specialized, Univega and DiamondBack deilivered high volume mountain bikes in 1981 and 1982, Schwinn appears to have responded quickly to this challenge. I am guessing here, but most of the first "mountian" bikes that Schwinn shipped did not appear in any catalog. Again I'm guessing, but they probably got frames from whoever could supply them.
The KingSting, Sidewinder and Sierra models where Schwinn's internally produced mountain bikes
and the frame serial numbers are Schwinn format. Most of the other models have frame serial numbers from suppliers external to Schwinn.

2. Serial number format: lSynnnnn.
where: l is a letter (for the month?),
S is always in the second position (manufacturer?),
y is a number for the year of manufacture,
nnnnn is a sequential number.

Several brand names have frames with this format of serial number, including:
Bianchi, Miele, Shogun, 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper Sport, Takara, and more.
All of these brand names also had frames with other serial number formats, just like Schwinn.


3. Serial number WAK23207? found by @crumbling.

I now recognize the format of the serial number for Terminaut's Schwinn.
The last character is difficult to recognize, but it is not a number. It is the letter "T" or "J".

The serial number is WAK23207T. This is a Danish VIN.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_bicycle_VIN-system

The "W" is for Import into Denmark.
The "AK" is for the importer Age Kroll, later to mean Centurion of Europe (not Western States Imports).

The "T" at the end is for the year 1980.

The decals on the frame are consistent with 1980-81 Schwinn bicycles.

So this gives the year the frame was manufactured (or imported into Denmark).

I have no information as to the model.

bmxbozo

Hummer, thanks for information. I guess the mystery continues. Thought my bike was a Cimarron, thus the decals. Must have been added later after the Cimarron was available. Makes no sense...but when you see a Schwinn head badge and decals you kind of think you have a Schwinn.......

Cheers everyone....

crumbling

Hummer
1. I agree there is little record of what Schwinn was doing.
2. To analyse these by your description these are the s/n numbers I have seen for these frames
The frame numbers I have seen are, including mine are
BS367578
BS367823
BS367845
CS472494
CS476244
WAK232071
B and C would equal February and April
S would mean an unknown supplier? you show doubt on this yourself with the ? this is not explained to be proven as to who it could have been.
3 and 4 as the first numbers would equal 1983 and 1984, but it seems 1984 is way too late for these frames as they are proven and accepted as being for sale in 1983, (including the Takara.)
Do you not find it difficult to accept these 5 frames have been made over 13 to 14 months, February 1983 to April 1984, at least.
I go back to the ReCycle, for one, as an explanation of Schwinn s/n`s at the time,
"Japan Made numbering system: Letter is the month, number in the first or second position is the year." No indication of an S or Japanese manufacture nor manufacturers identity.

If I go back to the Schwinn USA s/n system for this period of time, B was the month of February S was the second letter could also be for 1981 and that changed to a T for 1982. By 1983 the second letter had stopped and replaced by a number for the year.
Others have mentioned the use of the letter S as the first letter, to indicate Japanese manufacture, followed by a letter indicating the month. I must point out the s/n of these frames is the B or C month first followed by an S in all circumstances, not S followed by the month and a number for the year. Le Tour and Super Le Tour models sometimes began with an 'S' followed by the Japan Made numbering system: 1983 - SA300000, the S could be there but not in the second location. This applied to road frames not MTB
I cannot find an explanation of the Schwinn numbers built in the 1980`s to determine the monthly build numbers and therefore qualify the monthly numbers..
If B and C are accepted as February and April. S is still acceptable as 1981 by Schwinn acceptable explanation for US frames as 1981. There appears to be no explanation for BS or CS than what it is. There is only the Schwinn s/n meanings to follow but these frames are compromised in dating due to the Japanese manufacture and the location of the s/n on the frame not being consistent with the Schwinn prescribed US location.
To clarify the s/n for my frame is BS367845 not SB367845, I think this is to be read as such and not misinterpreted for it`s meaning by referring to SB---- or SC----.

3. In respect to WAK232071, I had copied the number from another forum page and cannot remember actually seeing a legible photo of the s/n.
I have referred to the Danish site and WAK is not shown, only AK that was not prescribed to have a W before. They also state “This table shows examples of manufacturer codes, but is in no way to be considered a complete listing” so there could be another list I cannot see that may include WAK.

Another explanation is from the Schwinn BMX pages, of the WAK could represent,
“The sequence was changed in 1981 when facilities were moved to Wisconsin, to include the letter "W" followed by a production month letter and several numbers, the first two signifying year of production (81 = 1981, etc.).
Sting 20" racing bikes have a production month letter "T" signifying that it is a tri-oval frame (with three frame tube ends ovalized). Example: F1T20404 = June, 1981.”
By this the meaning could be
WAK232071 ie W = Wisconsin, A = January, K = ? 2 = 82. K could signify the frame type MTB?. Until this posting by Hummer I have no reference to a T or J at the end, just 1, nor the possibility it is a Danish format. I believe the frame was in the US production.

Due to the period of time these frames where made and sold, and only a clear explanation by Schwinn at the time can explain what happened.

crumbling

Hummer

The "W" at the start of a Danish VIN means that the bicycle is being imported into Denmark. The "W" is not part of the code that identifies the importer.

The "AK" is the identifier of the Dainish Importer. AK is for Age Kroll. Later AK becomes identified with Centurion of Europe.

crumbling

I missed that. Yes WAK are the letters. I have been back to the original Terminaut listing but the photos are not there although a list references are showing. Do you have a copy of the stamping. Terminaut is not being seen on the MTBR forum.
crumbling

Hummer

I thought that I did, but I cannot find it.