lotekmod

I agree with the very stiff opinions. My father in law has a Fuji Sagres with quad butted valite he doesn't ride. It's become my vacation bike for when we visit. I'm always a little shocked how it transmits every little bump in the road, even with 1 1/4" tires. Fun bike though, I always look forward to riding it for a change.

avzay66

I had a valite allegro for a bit and also found it to be super harsh, in fact more harsh than my aluminum caad9 frame. Are fuji quad butted chromoly frames as harsh (such as found on the team and opus models)? Is it construction of the frame or mostly materials?

Sizzle-Chest

I think it's materials. Valite was vanadium, aluminum and manganese rather than chromium and molybdenum in chromoly. Curious if the aluminum caused it to be any lighter.

old's'cool

The preponderance of information on this page suggests that Valite is a steel alloy, not aluminum [see the Fuji Del Rey description & discussion, about half way down the page]. Furthermore, that Valite is pegged somewhere between Hi-ten and Cro-Mo in terms of material strength. If so, frame stiffness of a Valite-tubed bicycle would likely fall between these two norms as well. Skilful employment of quad-butting in the tubeset design might bring it close to unseamed, double butted Cro-Mo in terms of weight, if not compliance (i.e. opposite of stiffness).

oddjob2

I haven't seen a Coca Cola can look like this!

Scooper

I think Sizzle-Chest is just saying vanadium, aluminum, and manganese are alloying elements in VALite, not that it's aluminum rather than steel. I don't know whether that's true or not, but it certainly could be. For example, Reynolds 631 and 853 steel both have 0.02% to 0.04% aluminum content by weight, and vanadium and manganese are fairly common elements in steel alloys. I doubt, though, that a very small amount of aluminum would make VALite measurably lighter.

Alloying of Steels

"Aluminum is widely used as a deoxidizer. Aluminum can control austenite grain growth in reheated steels and is therefore added to control grain size. Aluminum is the most effective alloy in controlling grain growth prior to quenching. Titanium, zirconium, and vanadium are also valuable grain growth inhibitors, but there [sic] carbides are difficult to dissolve into solution in austenite."

old's'cool

scooper, that makes perfect sense. Often time, trace amounts of this, that or the other thing are used as alloying elements, and have effect all out of proportion on properties like corrosion resistance or yield strength, while having no appreciable effect on bulk properties such as density or elastic modulus, which is as one would expect.

Cougrrcj

Wow. Takes me back to my Materials Science classes when I was an Engineering student...

trailmix

I am also interested in where the valite ranks on the steel pecking order. I am looking at an 86 450se for my mother. Actually I am thinking of trading a Terry made with Tange Infinity so I am curious as to how they compare.

Bikedued

The Terry is higher end, just by being a brand name and not proprietary. My quad butted VaL lite 61cm Club Fuji was around 24.5 pounds, so not bad at all, honestly. "High" end stuff was only a pound or three lighter during that time period. They're about equal IMHO, but the Terry has more cache for the brand name.,,,,BD

trailmix

Thanks for the info. I may just choose the one that fits her better. Do any of you Fuji guys know if the 450se came with a 520 or 540 ISO front wheel? I like to get spares sorted before I make a purchase.

jodphoto

Don't mean to wake you, just found this older thread.

I perceive you C&V folks as being connoisseurs so don't be angry with me. So even though I am not a strict conservationist, I love these old beauties and make rideable personal bike art which adheres to age appropriate design.

I have become a great fan of mid 80's Fuji Road bikes. My first was a Salvation Army find over 15 years ago and I still ride it today. The fit of these is particularly good for me due to their relatively short top tube. I'm not too slavish about restoring bikes to their original condition, though and am quick to make upgrades or convert to fixed gear. I like to ride my builds. They work hard. I like Leagues since they are still priced low and have good frames. I usually find these in the < $100 pile and re-animate them for my own entertainment.

I'm picking up a Sagres in a 19" or 21" ( I'm a 23") this weekend free and my research shows there were 4 different VALite versions over 4 consecutive years. I will research this when I pick up the bike and identify the year. Plan A is to have it actually be a 23", in beautiful shape, love the bike and ride it. Plan B is to borrow the 27" wheels and crank and BB and put them on a 74 Raleigh Grand prix fixie project. I hope they are skinny-ish rims so I can run 27 x 1" tires. The Raleigh came with rusted Rigidas and a bent cottered crankset which, for me is jalopy-wear and not highly regarded even when they were new. The Raleigh was made in Worksop so is ISO where it counts.

So, here's a question:
Does anyone have a source for LaPree hub cones. They seem to taper more radically than any potential replacements I have found. I have tried several from Wheels Mfg. My understanding is that the LaPrees are no great shakes, but I'm keeping 4 hubs alive with marine grease and soothing words.

Peace.

zazenzach

What model year do you have? I don't recall the sagres coming with LaPree hubs, just the deraillures. my 86 came with sansins.

if they are LaPrees i think it will be impossible to find just the hubcones. better off just buying a new hub.

You can try using smaller diameter Shimano cones with an o-ring to fill the gap between the cone and the seal but i dont know how effective that would be.

eschlwc

i would prefer a mid-level univega, nishiki or miyata over the same from fuji due to the stiffness and weight of my one club fuji valite experience.

jodphoto

Quote:

Originally Posted by zazenzach

What model year do you have? I don't recall the sagres coming with LaPree hubs, just the deraillures. my 86 came with sansins.

if they are LaPrees i think it will be impossible to find just the hubcones. better off just buying a new hub.

You can try using smaller diameter Shimano cones with an o-ring to fill the gap between the cone and the seal but i dont know how effective that would be.

You're quite right. The LePrees are from my two Leagues. Changing the hubs to a better vintage Japanese hub like an early DA would be the sensible thing to do. With shiny new SS spokes as well.

Here's the minutiae: The LePree cone race narrows to almost a point at the inside and the bearings run close to the tip. This makes all of the other dimensions of a replacement cone less relevant. Most of the cones I've found have much more meat at the inside tip of the cone and so the bearings run right on the tip. I've considered smaller ball bearings or re-contouring the original or replacement races. It all gets a little compulsive so I just grease the old ones frequently with marine grease and keep riding.

I love the Ukai 700c rims on the Leagues. They are 14mm (inside), simple and elegant with a smooth, non-beveled contour and are eyeletted and strong. I'm hoping the 27" Ukais on the Sagres that's coming share the same design and proportions. What are the rims like on your 86 Sagres?.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschlwc

i would prefer a mid-level univega, nishiki or miyata over the same from fuji due to the stiffness and weight of my one club fuji valite experience.

These are all wonderful bikes I would love to own.

Why Fuji? Back in 1999, I was looking for a road bike to ride in the upcoming NYC Five Borough Tour. There she was in a Salvation Army store window, a neglected, 1984 silver League. I TLC'd her back to life and rode the 50 mile tour. I still have this bike and have made upgrades, new paint, Deore and 105 components and turned it into a 21speed city bike with 700 x28 with flat bars, grip shifters and platform pedals. The original frame and rims are still holding up.

So, the Fuji preference is romance for the most part. I still dance with the one that brung me.

Peace.

eschlwc

a darrell royal quote? you don't hear that every day. but yeah, that's exactly why i ride motos and root for the sooners.

boomer.

jodphoto

I never knew who coined that but I've heard it from several people including Ronald Reagan. Thanks for the info!

T-Mar

I sent his via PM to the OP, 2-3 months ago. I thought it might be of interest to the general membership:

Quad butted VALite is almost certainly Ishiwata Magny EXO or, at least, very similar. The Fuji catalogues state that VALite was developed by Fuji in conjunction with one of the "world's foremost bicycle tubing manufactures". At the time, the only two world class tubing manufacturers in Japan were Ishiwata and Tange. Fuji bought their components from the JEX trade association members (Dia-Compe, Sugino, SunTour). While there is no evidence of Ishiwata being a member of JEX, it is known that Tange was a member of the rival JBM trade association, so Ishiwata would be the logical source for the tubing. The fact that later Fuji bicycles with non-proprietary tubing used Ishiwata and that many VALite era bicycles have been reported with Ishiwata stampings on the fork steering tubes further support Ishiwata as the best candidate for tubing supplier.

As for the alloy, the very early 1980s was a time when most manufacturers introduced steels that bridged the gap between hi-tensile and CrMo both in terms of cost, ease of brazing, tensile strength and consequently, frame weight. Columbus marketed their Aelle, Tange had Mangaloy, Miyata introduced Mangalight and Ishiwata debuted Magny. While the exact alloys were rarely given, they were variously described as manganese, carbon manganese or manganese-molybdenum alloys. (The latter, while having the same description as Reynolds 531, should not be compared with it, as the exact composition, particularly the percentage of molybdenum could be significantly different). Regardless, the key element in these new alloys was a relatively substantial amount of manganese, which was a key element of VALite, as mentioned in Fuji literature.

Additionally, VALite first appeared at roughly the same time (1982 in DB, 1983 in QB and 1984 in TB) as Magny. Like Magny it also occupied the model range between the CrMo models and the low hi-tensile models. Even, if the alloys were not the exact same composition, they were likely very similar.

When Fuji introduced their quad butted VALite they used the numeric designation 1796. This correlates to the wall thickness of Ishiwata Magny EXO which were 1.0, 0.7, 0.6 and 0.9 mm, Similarly triple butted VALite 178 appears to match Magny EX which had wall thickness of 1.0, 0.7 and 0.8 mm. The double butted VALite tube sets, 212 and 414, appear to correspond to Magny V and Magny X though there is no direct correlation in the numeric designations.

The one thing that I never understood was why it was Magny and not Mangy, given the manganese content. I know that I'm always tempted to type Mangy and I've even seen it transposed that way in print. Consequently, I'm wondering is it another one of those Japanese to English translation errors that used to be so prevalent?

gaucho777 

^T-Mar, It's so nice to see you posting again!

leicanthrope

I suspect that the similarity to the adjective describing something with mange could be an issue as well.

My 82 Team has an Ishiwata stamping on the steerer, but my 75 Pro has a 26.8 seatpost, with AFAIK is more associated with Tange. Looking through the various catalogs from various years, Fuji does seem to spec components from all over the place at times. Alternately, I wonder if it was possible that some of the early hand built frames were farmed out to a smaller builder that had it's own supply chain.

jodphoto

Always assumed Magny was Magnesium. Guess not.

unworthy1

Magny=manganese...and OMG!!! T-Mar is BACK!!!
Pop that champagne!

Prowler 

GREAT to see you posting T-Mar. I have learned so much from your contributions. Wow. Thanks.

Chrome Molly

Is it just me, or did the intelligence level on this board take a big step up?

rekmeyata

This is mixed bag of nuts, some like one kind of nut and others like another and still others like them all!

I have an 84 Fuji Club that came with that tubeset and I would say compared to Miyata triple butted splined vs Reynolds 531cs that the Fuji seems stiffer in the up and down area but not side to side like the Miyatas I have, the Reynolds though is more comfortable than either. I use to race the Reynolds so it was stiff enough to race the mountains of California but there is something unique about the Reynolds in the comfort department. This of course is just my observations, and none of the frames have the exact same geometry so I can only go on what I own. But I think the Fuji quad butted frame is highly underrated however for some reason the Fuji Club on E-Bay has constantly sold for more money than any of my other bikes, even my higher end ones! Not sure why. So if you have chance to buy one I would if it's in good shape and has all the original components.