Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-12-08, 05:20 AM   #1
viscount
Viscount
Thread Starter
 
viscount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Mystery unusual English Lightweight needing ID. Pics!!

Just found this lovely mystery lightweight machine, probably late 60s.
No badges/decals to indicate make, but has good mid range components and in good working order.
Rode it for 10 miles or so yesterday to bring it home and it works perfectly.

Looks original and little used, and spec as I know it now is:

GB stem and Coureur calipers.
Ornate lugs!
5 speed with Atom flip flop hub.
Bayliss Wiley BB with oiler nipple.
Steel wheels, Huret derailer/changer.
Italia saddle.
Blumels lightweight guards and reflector.











Obviously from a small maker, probably Coventry made.
The triple triangle fame is quite distinctive.
(Did GT copy this??)
Cleaned up/lubricated a little from how it appears here and it rides very smoothly.
viscount is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-08, 08:12 AM   #2
John E
feros ferio
 
John E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Bikes: 1959 Capo; 1980 Peugeot PKN-10; 1981 Bianchi; 1988 Schwinn KOM-10;
Posts: 17,163
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 101 Post(s)
Late 1960s or late 1950s/early 1960s?
__________________
"Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
Capo [dschaw'-poe]: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger, S/N 42624
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1981 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
John E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-08, 08:37 AM   #3
dbakl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Bikes: Cinelli, Paramount, Raleigh, Carlton, Zeus, Gemniani, Frejus, Legnano, Pinarello, Falcon
Posts: 5,775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
That is very cool, 50s I'd say from the look of the lugs and the fork. The parts may be newer than the frame. There was a company that popularized that seatstay treatment, but I'm drawing a blank right now. I think Hetchins made them too.
dbakl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-08, 08:49 AM   #4
rhm
multimodal commuter
 
rhm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Posts: 15,826
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
The BB oiler suggests a date in the early 60's or earlier. The fact that the oiler is the same color as the frame suggests a rattle-can respray. You might consider wiping at it with some Goof-off, see if there's anything left of the original paint and decals.

What's the seatpost size? That may tell you something about the frame material.
rhm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-08, 09:22 AM   #5
lotek
Forum Admin
 
lotek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: n.w. superdrome
Bikes: 1 trek, serotta, rih, de Reus, Pogliaghi and finally a Zieleman! and got a DeRosa
Posts: 17,710
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
yup, hellenic seat stays. They were a very well known feature of
Hetchins frames, although not exclusive of them. I find 3 marques on
CR that show hellenic seatstays. Hetchins, Merlin (in Bob Jackson era) and
Thanet. The Thanet Silverlight had a strange offset bottom bracket so I don't think
that's it.
Most of the Hetchins I've seen had more elaborate lugs, and that is more elaborate than
the Italian style lugs.
By process of elimination I'd say probably a Merlin, 1960's at the latest.
Of course this is wild assed conjecture on my part, I do suggest you try to
get in touch with Hilary Stone about this one (he sometimes posts here but most often
hangs out at CR list.)

Marty
__________________
Sono pił lento di quel che sembra.
Odio la gente, tutti.


Want to upgrade your membership? Click Here.
lotek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-08, 10:36 AM   #6
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 9,325
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
^Yes^ contact Hilary or Norris Lockley (also of the CR list), they should have some help for you. I hope that isn't a crack in the BB shell near the oiler! Let it be dirt...
unworthy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-08, 11:20 AM   #7
armchaircyclist
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kingsville, TX
Bikes: 2 Cannondales and a Motobecane frameset
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I am showing my ignorance but what is the CR list? Thanks, George
armchaircyclist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-08, 11:28 AM   #8
Sixty Fiver
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
 
Sixty Fiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: YEG
Bikes: See my sig...
Posts: 27,264
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
I haven't got a clue what it is but it is certainly, gorgeous.

Cr is Classic Rendezvous
Sixty Fiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-08, 03:38 PM   #9
lotek
Forum Admin
 
lotek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: n.w. superdrome
Bikes: 1 trek, serotta, rih, de Reus, Pogliaghi and finally a Zieleman! and got a DeRosa
Posts: 17,710
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
I was wondering why they were called hellenic seat stays then I stumbled across this
'Hellenic stays were introduced by (and named for) the British frame builder Fred Hellens in 1923'
on Sheldon Brown's web site (should have known the answer would be there).


marty
__________________
Sono pił lento di quel che sembra.
Odio la gente, tutti.


Want to upgrade your membership? Click Here.
lotek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-08, 03:43 PM   #10
mattm
**** that
 
mattm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CALI
Bikes:
Posts: 13,813
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
nice lugs!
__________________
cat 1.

blog
mattm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-08, 04:14 PM   #11
SingeDebile
Senior Member
 
SingeDebile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 593
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
very nice indeed!! you have yourself a real find there, I would not think of parting with it if its your size. Sorry no new info, what i knew has already been brought up but good luck!
SingeDebile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-08, 12:35 AM   #12
viscount
Viscount
Thread Starter
 
viscount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for all that guys.
I thought the best place to start was right here.
Bought it Saturday and only got it home late Tuesday, so not had time to do much research myself yet.

Got a few more specific details now I've had a closer look.

Seat-post is 27.2mm.
Atom hubs (Diana f/w) are inscribed 23 79 front and 08 79 rear. Might be dates?
Rigida Superchromix rims which are inscribed 37 + 79 in the diamond.
Looks like the wheels are 79 to me.
Probably replacements since the frame seems quite light without the steels.


Chain-set is Bayliss Wiley and stamped as here.




AX and AW seem to be date codes.

Headset is stamped Alatet.
New one on me!

Does look as if it has had a repaint at some point.

The seat stays are quite sophisticated being double tapered, thinner at either end.
Not seen that before.

Next step is to check Hilary Stone and maybe Classic Lightweights.
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/

Unfortunately the frame is a little small for me at 23" so it'll probably get passed on eventually.
viscount is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-08, 02:20 AM   #13
viscount
Viscount
Thread Starter
 
viscount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
After ten minutes on the Classic Lightweights site I now believe it is a Pollard!
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk...s/pollard.html
viscount is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-08, 02:24 AM   #14
ozneddy
Senior Member
 
ozneddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Bikes: Casati, ,Peugot,Mitchell,Raliegh,Nishiki
Posts: 1,485
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My money is on "Hetchins" (Hope it is anyway,I luv em)
ozneddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-08, 03:15 AM   #15
viscount
Viscount
Thread Starter
 
viscount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
How much you wanna put on it?
I would love it to be a Hetchins, but it ain't!
But it's probably rarer than a Hetchins...
viscount is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-08, 03:48 AM   #16
BikeManDan
Senior Member
 
BikeManDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Oakland, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 1,300
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I say GT triple triangle
BikeManDan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-08, 04:17 AM   #17
ozneddy
Senior Member
 
ozneddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Bikes: Casati, ,Peugot,Mitchell,Raliegh,Nishiki
Posts: 1,485
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Bwah I wannit to be a hetchins !
ozneddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-08, 04:19 AM   #18
Picchio Special
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Posts: 5,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by viscount View Post

AX and AW seem to be date codes.

Headset is stamped Alatet.
New one on me!
That is a Williams chainset, and those are indeed date codes: AW=1956, with the chainring (AX) being a year later.

Alatet headsets are fairly common on British lightweights from that era; I have one that's going on my Flying Scot.
Picchio Special is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-08, 04:23 AM   #19
Picchio Special
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Posts: 5,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozneddy View Post
Bwah I wannit to be a hetchins !
Almost nothing about that bike says "Hetchins."
Picchio Special is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-08, 06:13 AM   #20
viscount
Viscount
Thread Starter
 
viscount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Picchio Special View Post
That is a Williams chainset, and those are indeed date codes: AW=1956, with the chainring (AX) being a year later.

Alatet headsets are fairly common on British lightweights from that era; I have one that's going on my Flying Scot.
Hey, many thanks for that.
I was assuming, from the above pics, that it was a Bayliss Wiley chain-set.
If it is a Williams I stand corrected
The B W in the stamp led me to assume Bayliss Wiley obviously.
But this is how you learn and it's a newish area for me, so BF does the job again!!

If it is 1956/7 that fits in with the serial number which seem to run in series.
1898 was the last in 1990 and mine is 1596.
Adds up, and fits in with the Coureur brake set and mudguards!

The Alatet headset is free and smooth so I don't intend touching that.

Seems like I know the make and year 24 hours or so after posting the question here!
How good is that?
Thanks again.

P.S. Is your Flying Scot featured here on BF?
Be good to see it.
viscount is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-08, 06:21 AM   #21
viscount
Viscount
Thread Starter
 
viscount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
I hope that isn't a crack in the BB shell near the oiler! Let it be dirt...
It certainly was dirt.
I had a close look after reading yours.
It's amazing how photos show things that you can miss with the naked eye!
viscount is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-08, 05:28 AM   #22
viscount
Viscount
Thread Starter
 
viscount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just to finish this old thread with the right answers....
It is a Pollard, made in Coventry in the late 40s!!
A beautiful and rare machine.

See here the brother of the person I sold the frame to riding a similar Pollard hellenic in competition in the late 40s.
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk...s/pollard.html

I sold the frame and forks to a certain Peter Brown for a very modest sum. (£75)
When he received it he complained that I had not included the brakes and stem etc. etc.
Not an amicable transaction.

But it taught me lessons which are well learnt now
IE Do your research. Do your research. Do your research.
Wiser now

Should've kept it though.....
viscount is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-09, 11:06 AM   #23
viscount
Viscount
Thread Starter
 
viscount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just looking through old posts and realise that this one didn't get finished properly.
I think it could do with a final picture.


Pretty much original except for Huret RD saddle and later Wiliams chainwheel.
Rear Blumels guard was being fixed when this photo was taken.

It is a lovely, distinctive, English lightweight made in Coventry by a relatively unknown, small maker.
It was found languishing in a shed less than a mile from where it was made.
(Even on the same road. Stoney Stanton Road, Coventry.)
Now being restored by its new owner and will probably lead a pampered life from now on.

Should never have sold it....
viscount is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-09, 11:28 AM   #24
Picchio Special
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Posts: 5,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
How bizarre: I was just looking at this one on ebay yesterday:

http://tinyurl.com/dk6htv

and reresearching the whole Hellenic stay thing (though this one currently listed doesn't have them. There's yet another one (frame) on ebay UK right now. Maybe one of them has your name on it.
Picchio Special is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-09, 02:45 PM   #25
viscount
Viscount
Thread Starter
 
viscount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gloucester, England.
Bikes: Mercian, Viscount x2, Holdworth La Quelda, Gundle Trade Bike, Williams/Mercian Tourer, Itera,
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
That is a loooong shot!? And quite bizarre as you say.
These machines are ultra rare here in UK so how that one got over there is another story.
Doesn't look too expensive at $750 though.
Track frame too, admittedly a late one.
Still hens teeth stuff though.

The one on ebay looks a bit of a mess IMO.
The extra rear struts make it look as if the the rear triangle wasn't up to it in the first place.
The Hellenic version is the one to have.

I've only ever had, or even seen, two Pollards.
The other is here:
http://flickr.com/photos/bikesruz/
viscount is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:57 AM.