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  1. #1
    Viscount viscount's Avatar
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    Williams 531 Road bike. Mercian? Or Falcon? Picture rich thread.

    Bought this bike yesterday, the owner telling me it was a Mercian.

    But I suspect it to be a Falcon....
    Williams is/was an LBS in Cheltenham who sometimes built bespoke bikes for their customers.


    This one is 1971/72 with 1400 miles from new and immaculate, just a little dusty.

    531 22" frame, fully loaded, has specially imported bars for the owner who had a back problem, but original Sakae Randdner drop bars/GB stem are with it.
    Has Shimano 600 group set, but Weinmann Vainqueur centre pulls/levers.

    Sanyo BB mounted light set, new pair of Michelin 32-630 Sports tyres. (Fitted today)
    And a lovely, big vintage bell!!


    Great bicycle, but is it Mercian or Falcon?
    I suspect the latter.


    Serial number is 024320.
    If it were Mercian the last two digits would signify the year surely?


    Either way a great bike, but comments welcomed.
    Especially about the Shimano 600 components.
    Do they fit with the 1971/72 date?
    Will be fitted with original bars/levers/saddle etc. tomorrow and that will change its appearance radically.
    Last edited by viscount; 05-29-08 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Typos!

  2. #2
    Prodigal road guy MajorA's Avatar
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    The Shimano 600 components aren't from 1971-72; they're from the era commonly known as "Arabesque" and were made, I believe, from '79-'83 or so. But to take the guesswork out ofit, the derailleurs will have a two letter code stamped on them, with the first letter being the year, and the second the month. If memory serves, D=1980, E=1981, etc., so DA would be January 1980 ... FC would be March 1982 ... you get the picture. I could be off a year either way on the code.

    That said, nice bike! Reminds me of my Bob Jackson, but I know it's not a Bob from the SN ...

  3. #3
    Prodigal road guy MajorA's Avatar
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    Forgot to mention ... the cranks and chainrings will have the same kind of datecodes ...

  4. #4
    Disraeli Gears Charles Wahl's Avatar
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    Are you sure that 02 beginning the serial number is not 82? Braze-on cable loops on the top tube don't seem like a '72 thing to me. The 1973 Falcon catalog shows clips for the top tube for any of the bikes that would have been constructed with R 531. Also, the fork crown doesn't look Falcon-like to me. And there's no light boss on the fork, either (a sort of Falcon-of-the-70s thing, but not on all their bikes). In the same vein, no wrapover seat stays, though not all Falcons had those, either.

  5. #5
    Vintage French Bike Fan
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    Looks like an early 80's bike to me based on components and color. That was a really popular color in the early 80's. Not that it couldn't have been earlier, just a hunch. I bet Mercian would be happy to tell you if they built the bike or not and when. At least, I think they would be.

    Viscount, you have been amassing some pretty awesome metal in the last couple of days!

    Karl

  6. #6
    shaken, not stirred. gnome's Avatar
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    Can't tell you what the bike is, except for sweet.

    I'll gladly take any of those surplus 21-22" lightweights of your hands and dispose of them properly.

    ps. I'd leave the upright bars on the Williams, that would make a wicked sleeper bike.
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  7. #7
    Viscount viscount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorA View Post
    The Shimano 600 components aren't from 1971-72; they're from the era commonly known as "Arabesque" and were made, I believe, from '79-'83 or so. But to take the guesswork out ofit, the derailleurs will have a two letter code stamped on them, with the first letter being the year, and the second the month. If memory serves, D=1980, E=1981, etc., so DA would be January 1980 ... FC would be March 1982 ... you get the picture. I could be off a year either way on the code.

    That said, nice bike! Reminds me of my Bob Jackson, but I know it's not a Bob from the SN ...
    Thanks for that.
    I suspected the year was out, but this is what the previous owner told me and he's been accurate previously.
    That said he's 80 and a little frail now.
    But it was built for him and he is looking for the original documents that came with it, which should be illuminating.
    Looking at the chain-set it is numbered 2 with an E so it looks like Feb(?) 1981.

  8. #8
    Viscount viscount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Wahl View Post
    Are you sure that 02 beginning the serial number is not 82? Braze-on cable loops on the top tube don't seem like a '72 thing to me. The 1973 Falcon catalog shows clips for the top tube for any of the bikes that would have been constructed with R 531. Also, the fork crown doesn't look Falcon-like to me. And there's no light boss on the fork, either (a sort of Falcon-of-the-70s thing, but not on all their bikes). In the same vein, no wrapover seat stays, though not all Falcons had those, either.
    On reflection I think it is 80s now. The Shimano components are saying that.
    I'm absolutely certain it is exactly as it came new, except for the bars.
    I do know that Williams (a big dealership in Cheltenham for many years) sold Mercian and Falcon but they have changed hands in the last 10 years or so and don't have records.

    I'll be checking with Mercian but I somehow can't believe that a Mercian frame would be 'disguised' or made to look anonymous.

    Oh! And it came with a fancy Falcon pump! (Not pictured)

  9. #9
    Viscount viscount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karmat View Post
    I bet Mercian would be happy to tell you if they built the bike or not and when. At least, I think they would be.
    Viscount, you have been amassing some pretty awesome metal in the last couple of days!
    Karl
    I'll be checking Mercian today, they've always been helpful in the past.
    As to awesome metal, well, things come along and it's difficult to resist sometimes!
    You know the score.

    This one I'm looking at keeping because although it's a little on the small side, I wanted a quality tourer and this fits the bill I reckon.
    I'm on a tight budget (retired!) and had to sell my Mercian Time Trialer to finance this one....
    If this Williams really is a Mercian by another name I'll be happy.
    Until a better one comes along at least.

  10. #10
    Viscount viscount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnome View Post
    Can't tell you what the bike is, except for sweet.
    I'll gladly take any of those surplus 21-22" lightweights of your hands and dispose of them properly.
    ps. I'd leave the upright bars on the Williams, that would make a wicked sleeper bike.
    Thought you were moving over here to grab some of this English steel?
    I wouldn't want to think of the shipping costs to NZ
    I'm not keen on the upright bars and the original owner wants them back anyway.
    I'm just fitting the drops now and I do like the look of it.
    Sakea Randnners have a subtle, graceful shape in my eyes.
    Leather saddle and new hoods, it'll be a picture!

    BTW not sure what you mean by sleeper....

  11. #11
    Viscount viscount's Avatar
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    I just fitted the original Sakea drops and a nice new (but stiff) Wrights WN-3 saddle and I'm off out to try it out and take some new pics.

  12. #12
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    The 5-speed freewheel, centrepull brakes, and over-the-BB gear cable routing are more consistent with 1970s than 1980s, but I concur that the brazed-on rear brake cable guides are a 1980s feature. My best guess is simply ca. 1980.
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
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  13. #13
    Viscount viscount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John E View Post
    The 5-speed freewheel, centrepull brakes, and over-the-BB gear cable routing are more consistent with 1970s than 1980s, but I concur that the brazed-on rear brake cable guides are a 1980s feature. My best guess is simply ca. 1980.
    I agree, and 1980 is close enough for me.
    Curious that a 1980/81 machine has a 5 speed block, but there is a considerable overlap there.
    The Weinmann Vainqueur centre-pulls also seem to be a little old for 1980, don't they?
    Could be that the LBS that built it simply used up old stock in the process.
    The original owner simply asked for it to be built with the best components, and they are pretty good for the time.

    But it's more about the frames origins that interest me.
    If it's Mercian, fine.
    If it's Falcon it's pretty good also

    I just took some more pics with the original bars installed.
    See below:



    I just love the shape of these bars.
    Don't anybody mention the missing wrap around the base of the LH lever...
    I got distracted in the middle of doing it (She will pay for it later)


    They need rotating slightly anti-clockwise I think.


    The saddle is new (NOS in 1978 anyway) and stiff, but it suits the bicycle in my opinion.


    Next it will get a good clean and polish.
    Gnome, tell me it doesn't look better like this

  14. #14
    Vintage French Bike Fan
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    Those bars are sweet! I'm a drop-bar guy, anyway, but I like the look of those. As for the seat, I have W3N's on two bikes. I love that profile: it's narrow enough to not chafe and wide enough to support me. Don't suppose you know where another NOS W3N is lying around, do you?

    Good choices, IMHO

    Karl

  15. #15
    Viscount viscount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karmat View Post
    Those bars are sweet! I'm a drop-bar guy, anyway, but I like the look of those. As for the seat, I have W3N's on two bikes. I love that profile: it's narrow enough to not chafe and wide enough to support me. Don't suppose you know where another NOS W3N is lying around, do you?

    Good choices, IMHO

    Karl
    The Wrights W3N here is unconsidered and therefore cheaper by far than the equivalent Brooks.
    To me they are as good as Brooks, and that's why I use them.
    NOS is difficult, but plenty of good condition used ones about.
    I got 3 currently in use.
    IIRC the NOS one cost me £8.25 plus P+P Try getting a Brooks for that.

    You really want me to keep an eye out I will do, no problem.
    The best ones are the lightly used in my opinion.
    Just broken in, but not too worn.

    Anyway the Williams looks cool now doesn't it?
    I think so Rides ever so well.

  16. #16
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    Very nice bike! And wow are you gathering up some real vintage stuff in a hurry!

    I'd say that centre pull brakes and 5 speeds were still pretty common on upper-mid through to the lower end bikes even until 1985-ish, but braze on cable guides were very uncommon even until 1980 on anything but top bikes. 1980-ish seems right to me. I also don't think the Weinmann brakes are out of place for a 1980 bike of that style. Low end bikes were using the Diacompe copies, and even cheaper bikes had the no-name Taiwan or Chinese versions. Of course the bike world is a bit different in the UK, so YMMV.

    Are those 27" or 700C wheels?

    Could the clamp on shifters be mounted on the down tube? Just curious if it's an option, given that you put drop bars back on it. I'd love to have a 531 frame that can take wide tires and fenders!
    Last edited by hhabca; 05-30-08 at 02:56 PM.

  17. #17
    shaken, not stirred. gnome's Avatar
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    It looks very nice. You certainly have been doing well in finding nice bikes.
    Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live. ~Mark Twain, "Taming the Bicycle"
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  18. #18
    shaken, not stirred. gnome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viscount View Post
    Thought you were moving over here to grab some of this English steel?
    I have to much stuff to ship, old bikes, cameras and cars. Besides I like living in on an island half the size of Britain with only about 1 million people (and 35 million sheep)

    Quote Originally Posted by viscount View Post
    I wouldn't want to think of the shipping costs to NZ
    I have looked at shipping costs to NZ, it is about £150 to ship a complete bike. And our dollar is worth 1/3 of a pound. So only very special bikes will I consider shipping here, eg Thanets, Hetchins etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by viscount View Post
    I'm not keen on the upright bars and the original owner wants them back anyway.
    I'm just fitting the drops now and I do like the look of it.
    Sakea Randnners have a subtle, graceful shape in my eyes.
    Leather saddle and new hoods, it'll be a picture!

    BTW not sure what you mean by sleeper....
    A sleeper bike is one where it looks like a old heavy slow bike but is actually a very nice riding faster bike.
    Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live. ~Mark Twain, "Taming the Bicycle"
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  19. #19
    Viscount viscount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhabca View Post
    Very nice bike! And wow are you gathering up some real vintage stuff in a hurry!

    I'd say that centre pull brakes and 5 speeds were still pretty common on upper-mid through to the lower end bikes even until 1985-ish, but braze on cable guides were very uncommon even until 1980 on anything but top bikes. 1980-ish seems right to me. I also don't think the Weinmann brakes are out of place for a 1980 bike of that style. Low end bikes were using the Diacompe copies, and even cheaper bikes had the no-name Taiwan or Chinese versions. Of course the bike world is a bit different in the UK, so YMMV.

    Are those 27" or 700C wheels?

    Could the clamp on shifters be mounted on the down tube? Just curious if it's an option, given that you put drop bars back on it. I'd love to have a 531 frame that can take wide tires and fenders!
    Wheels are 27" and it came with a pair of NOS Michelins (made in England so they must be old!) which I fitted yesterday.
    The shifters have a clamp that fits the stem but not the down-tube.
    But obviously you could use normal down-tube shifters.
    Got to say I would be more comfortable with them.

    I'm sure this frame would take fat 38 tyres along with the fenders.
    700 wheels would need longer reach brakes though.
    It's very nice the way it is right now.
    Looks good and rides better!

  20. #20
    Viscount viscount's Avatar
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    Gnome.
    I get the one about the sleeper now!
    OK, me not with all the jargon yet
    I just like the drop bars 'cos you got several grip choices, and on a long ride that's cool.

    I do know a little about NZ.
    Got relatives in Rotarua for example.
    Browns Bay?
    AND I know all about the sheep too.
    Don't really want to go too far into that one here, but I do like tender, young lamb!
    With mint sauce...

    So you like my Thanet?
    It's getting Lytaloy levers and Reynolds stem tomorrow.
    New (NOS) White Sprite tyres too.
    It's gonna be a picture.
    Just watch.
    Last edited by viscount; 05-30-08 at 04:28 PM. Reason: Clarity

  21. #21
    Viscount viscount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Wahl View Post
    Are you sure that 02 beginning the serial number is not 82?
    Sorry, missed this point earlier.
    No, it is definitely 02.
    What's bugging me is, if it's a Mercian surely it would have the Mercian numbers?
    Why hide/conceal/anonymise it?

  22. #22
    Vintage French Bike Fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by viscount View Post
    Sorry, missed this point earlier.
    No, it is definitely 02.
    What's bugging me is, if it's a Mercian surely it would have the Mercian numbers?
    Why hide/conceal/anonymise it?
    Maybe Williams contracted with more than one maker and serials were their own rather than the builder's?

    As for the Wrights saddles: the ones I have are every inch as good as period Brooks. I have seen a couple that were not as well built, but for the most part they are great saddles. Sure, if you see a NOS/good used one I'm always interested!

    Cheers,
    Karl

  23. #23
    Viscount viscount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karmat View Post
    Maybe Williams contracted with more than one maker and serials were their own rather than the builder's?

    As for the Wrights saddles: the ones I have are every inch as good as period Brooks. I have seen a couple that were not as well built, but for the most part they are great saddles. Sure, if you see a NOS/good used one I'm always interested!

    Cheers,
    Karl
    Never thought that it might be a Williams SN.
    Good thinking!
    But that's part of the joy of this site.
    Brainstorming ideas? Yes!
    I learn something every day on here.

    I'll PM you if + when I get any W3Ns on the horizon.
    I watch for them anyway. (Me not a dealer or anything, so it'll be cost only
    I'm slightly annoyed with myself for selling my Mercian with the best, most supple W3N still on it, but it went to a nice guy who was buying his first Mercian, and it'll be an experience for him.

  24. #24
    Viscount viscount's Avatar
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    Yesterday I fitted the new Lytaloy brakes and Reynolds stem but when I went to fit new cables I got problems.
    I bought 5 meters of black outer from Halfords (don't laugh, they were open late!).

    But when I try to insert my standard cables, they don't fit!
    I took it back to Halfords last night and all I got was blank looks and annoying waffle from the 'Halfords Team'.
    I'm talking about the standard coiled wire outers here, not your gear specific horizontally lined outers. (Can't think of the jargon right now, but you will know what I mean)
    Does anybody have an idea what the problem might be?
    I'm mystified
    And will never knowingly use Halfords again.

  25. #25
    Vintage French Bike Fan
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    Hmm, well brake cables are about 1.7mm thick and shifter cables are about 1.2mm thick. Could it be that these are some shifter-specific housing? I always just use brake housing for everything, but maybe they actually sell both? Weird, anyway.

    Thanks for keeping your eyes out for W3N's. I only see them very occasionally here. I think Raleigh sold bikes with them, but those are probably the only ones that made it over here.

    Yeah, I bet that's a Williams serial number. But if it was built by Mercian then they will probably have kept records in case something should come back from Williams as defective. Just a guess. I'd try giving them a call. The worst thing that could happen is they laugh at you!

    Karl

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