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Old 06-03-08, 01:44 PM   #1
cpsqlrwn
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Victory Rear Derailleurs

Below are photos of 3 Victory RDs. The first is supposedly an 8 speed form late eighties, the middle a 6 speed from late 80's, and the right a 6 or 7 speed from 85-87.

Questions...

Can we confirm that these all are, in fact, Victory derailleurs?

Could the 8 speed derailleur be used in a 7 speed setup? I didn't even know Victory came in an 8 speed flavor.

From a mechanical perspective, are any of these designs superior to the others?

I know that Victory/Triomphe went through some changes during their time, so I was wondering if any of these particular derailleurs are flawed design wise.

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Old 06-03-08, 01:57 PM   #2
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This one is a Victory - I think version 1. I own it.
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Old 06-03-08, 02:04 PM   #3
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Left and center: Victory S3 (Series 3), 1988. Neither originally designed for indexing, later adapted to the Syncros system, which, far as I know, was 7-speed maximum.

Right: Triomhpe S3, 1987. Non-recessed pivot bolts w/no lettering, non-adjustable top pivot stop. Cage is same as Victory, unlike the previous Triomphe RD's.

-Kurt
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Old 06-03-08, 02:19 PM   #4
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P.S.: Here's a little Victory & Triomphe timeline for you:

VICTORY:

Victory, 1985-1986:

http://velobase.com/ViewSingleCompon...m=108&AbsPos=6

Victory LX (touring) 1985-1986:

http://velobase.com/ViewSingleCompon...m=108&AbsPos=9

Victory S3 (Series 3), 1987:

http://velobase.com/velobase.com/Vie...b-0e176a4c3921

Victory S3 1988 (new silkscreened logo):

http://velobase.com/ViewSingleCompon...m=108&AbsPos=7

Not known if the LX was carried through the S3 series or not. I don't believe the '87 catalog shows a touring variant of the RD.

TRIOMPHE:

Triomphe, 1985-1986:

http://velobase.com/ViewSingleCompon...m=108&AbsPos=3

Triomphe S3, 1987:


http://velobase.com/ViewSingleCompon...96CBD&Enum=108

I've yet to see a silkscreened Triomphe S3, so I am not sure if Campagnolo made such a beast or not. Won't venture to guess.

-Kurt
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Old 06-03-08, 03:04 PM   #5
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Cudak888, how can you determine that the one on the right is Triomphe? The logo looks like it might be a little narrower, but what makes that derailleur a Triomphe and not a Victory? They both used the larger, non recessed screws at some point.
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Old 06-03-08, 03:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpsqlrwn View Post
Cudak888, how can you determine that the one on the right is Triomphe? The logo looks like it might be a little narrower, but what makes that derailleur a Triomphe and not a Victory? They both used the larger, non recessed screws at some point.
The fixed derailer pivot, and the flat, non-recessed allen head pivot bolts for the top pivot and the lower pulley cage pivot.

Both of these details remained common throughout the entire run of Triomphe, same as the recessed pivot bolts and 3-position stop was retained through the entire run of Victory.

-Kurt
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Old 06-04-08, 10:06 PM   #7
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Now, THAT is some detailed information Kurt. I would never have known. Cheers

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Old 06-04-08, 10:24 PM   #8
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Glad to see it helped out.

-Kurt
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Old 06-05-08, 06:40 AM   #9
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Thanks for all the info Kurt! The differences in the pivot bolts are pretty clear now that you pointed them out. Sometimes those small details are hard to see!
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Old 06-05-08, 07:07 AM   #10
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hard to see for ME, that's for sure. The top-most castings look the same (or close), both bolts use an Allen key to install, the only diffs I can see are the obvious: recessed or non-recessed and engraved or plain...is something visible only from the rear, or am I just blind to some detail everybody else sees?
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Old 06-05-08, 08:29 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
hard to see for ME, that's for sure. The top-most castings look the same (or close), both bolts use an Allen key to install, the only diffs I can see are the obvious: recessed or non-recessed and engraved or plain...is something visible only from the rear, or am I just blind to some detail everybody else sees?
The only other obvious revision from the front are the pulley cage plates when both derailers became S3 in 1987. Otherwise, the most obvious functional difference between Triomphe and Victory is the fixed VS. multi-position top pivot stop, visible only from the rear:

Triomphe:


Victory:


The Triomphe single-position stop places the RD parallelogram arm nearly vertical, and on some dropouts, reverse of vertical. While either could be taken care of by filing either dropout or derailer stop, I always thought this as more a poor design then anything else. On the other hand, Victory's 3-position stop allows the derailer to be set at a reasonable angle, no matter what the dropout or the setting of the adjustable stop.

-Kurt
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Old 06-05-08, 12:04 PM   #12
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I believe all Campagnolo RD's at the time could be adapted to Synrcos with the addition of the barrel adjuster, which simply slid into the cable stop on the upper body of the existing derailer. The adjusters were a separate piece - I am quite positive that they came with the Syncros shifters package for the express purpose of retrofitting the RD for indexing.

As for performance, the Victory top stop allows for one to take great advantage of the original non-slant parallelogram design by swinging the parallelogram pivot as far forward as the freewheel (and of course, the adjustable stop) will allow. Of course, the stop was designed in such a way that the parallelogram sat quite far forward regardless of the setting.

Either way, the design wraps a considerable amount of chain for a straight parallelogram derailer, pulling the chain off to the next cog quite squarely as a result, which gives the derailer its smooth and crisp action, reminiscent of a slant-parallelogram derailer.

Triomphe was just the opposite and sat nearly vertical, wrapping very little chain, causing extremely poor shifts and additional freewheel wear. Think of a Nuovo Record RD sitting far too vertical. Same for 990 and 980, although I believe one of these two did have a parallelogram cage reminiscent of the '60s Gran Sport, pivoting from the center, which might have improved shifting performance, although at the expense of chain wrap.

Here is some video of a Victory RD shifting, which should demonstrate this action quite well. Keep in mind the sharp forward-angle of the parallelogram:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_2brsGuqhQ

I don't believe Victory has ever been looked upon as being collectible, Triomphe far less so if at all. Perhaps we might have a bit more of an appreciation for Victory here on C&V, but I've yet to run into a collector - that is, those who do not frequent this forum - that has a nice word to say for Victory.

From what I've seen, the majority of folks out there who do "collect" this equipment will dismiss it as later '80s low-end Campagnolo trash, mostly out of snobbery and desirability comparisons with NR and C-Record.

The funny thing is that I recall one fellow who absolutely tore into Victory. Couldn't say a nice thing about it, citing that the mid '80s was the "end" of worthwhile Campagnolo components. Five minute later, he was waxing poetic about C-Record. Poseurs never change, do they?

-Kurt
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Old 06-07-08, 12:28 PM   #13
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Just thought I'd post a photo of my Victory-equipped '84 Super Course once again :



Just weighed it in it's incomplete state (sans brake pads, pedals and rear brake lever) - comes out to 18.5 lbs. Quite surprising, considering the '84 Competition comes out to 20 lbs on the nose. I gather the pedals add at least a half-pound to the mix. Probably will be about the same as the Competition when all is said and done.

-Kurt
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