Dennispeeters

Hello People,

Been reading a lot of posts about fake Colnago's here, because I purchased such a dubious classic myself yesterday. Seems that a fake-colnago from the Low-countries could be almost anything underneath.
This one's purchased in the Netherlands, but might as well be from Belgium, as I'm pretty close to the border.
Bought it for 70 Euro's (110 USD), so with all the stuff on it, even as an unnamed vintage ride I'm pretty happy... it's my size....it looks cool and understated...it's red.... I love it.

The Specs:
- Frame: marked Colnago, heart shaped Lugs, Campagnolo Rear dropouts (yay... just discovered that).
- Frame Colour: Repainted (brush... but nice and tidy) Red... in chipping I can see that it used to be Gold with possibly Black pinstriping on the lugs at one time)
- Rear spacing 120mm, so 5-6 speed.
- Fork: Zeus 2007 or 2077 or 2067.... or.... etc. (not really clear number marking) blades repainted black recently by the seller (also gold underneath).
- Bottom Bracket: Campagnolo
- Crankset: Shimano Dura-Ace
- Headset: Hattaswan Japan (?)
- Handlebarstem: 3ttt
- Handlebar: Cinelli
- Front Derailleur: Shimano 60
- Rear Derailleur: Campagnolo Nuovo Record pat. 80
- Shifters: Campagnolo
- Seatpost: Miche 27.2 mm (used to be Campagnolo Patent)
- Seat: White San Marco Rolls
- Brakes : Campagnolo
- Brakelevers: Shimano Exage (Barf....)

I especially can't figure out why it would have a Zeus fork,(also been gold at one time, so not replaced At the same time of the paintjob), maybe broken and replaced? Did Zeus do Aftermarket Forks?
Also the Hattaswan headset seems a bit out of place.

Pictures:











Hope someone can help me identify my italian job

Grtz
Dennis

Dennispeeters

The ones that didn't fit....








Grtz
Dennis

04jtb

I have no idea if it is real or not, even if not though still looks like a great bike

Congrats on the find

lotek 

it's not real that's for sure. At first read (without pictures) I thought heart shaped lug cutout - De Rosa,
but no, I'd say they're more arrowhead than heart shaped.
I can't tell from the photo's does the fork crown say anything on the side or is that just
decorative cut out?

marty

Picchio Special

It's almost certainly not a Colnago - it is quite certainly not a Colnago Super as decaled. There have been some really strange Colnagos from Belgium that are supposedly semi-legit, which is why I added the "almost" to the first sentence. But I doubt that's one of them.

Warren128

whatever the mystery frame is, it looks very nice .

I noticed that whoever painted it simply sprayed right through the BB cutout because the plastic BB sleeve inside is red colored. Also, are those real cutouts, or are the white shapes simply hand painted onto the lugs? It's hard to tell in the pictures.

thanks for the pictures.

Dennispeeters

It says Zeus 2077 or something in that ballpark I'm sure about the Zeus, just not about the number.
Hence my question about Zeus producing aftermarket forks.

Real cutouts or rather millings, not punched through.

Dennispeeters

Known "semi-legit" Colnago's or Colners without any Club or Spade markings?
If so... pics are welcome.

jsmithepa

I have no idea if real or not...

1) Paint chips shows shoddy paint job however (as if paint over paint).
2) Judging from the popularity of high-end bikes in China (recent thread) I wouldn't be surprised if they are making Folnagos over there now.

paulkal

Looks like a nice bike, even if it is not a Colnago.
Can not tell you anything about the frame, but the engarving on the stem is Cees boer, that is a bikeshop here in Maassluis, Holland. They still exist and are a good shop, I know because I bought almost all my bikes there in the last twenty years.

Dennispeeters

I've googled Cees Boer, mailed them with a link to this topic, maybe they can enlighten me.

Detail, whilst looking at their info-page I saw this pic:

If you look at the window in the back you see the name Cornelo, which has more than once been named as a dutch framebuilder whose High-Quality raceframes look a bit like colnagos.
Maybe that's the real brand, and (one of the) later owner (s) repainted and "rebranded" it.
Also googled and mailed Cornelo - the kokke-bikestore (cornelo site seems to be defunct).
Let's hope for some results.

Seems I have solved the Zeus-fork mystery myself, they sold fork crowns to framembuilders:
https://www.classicrendezvous.com/Spa..._frm_parts.htm

leunkstar

Hans Kokke didnt reply to me when i researched my Cornelo/Colnago mistery bike. I would guess we both got Italian tubes (perhaps even Colnago tubes) which are assembled and rebranded here as Cornelo/Colner. Although as far as i know Colner is also the 2nd team back in the days Colnago was allowed to race with only one team.

leunkstar

Hi Dennis,

saw your email. What a nice ride! Join the fake Colnago force

this is mine:

i need to shoot a new picture because it's upgraded again.
It now has a campagnolo crankset, Ultegra RD & FD and Sora 8spd shifters (finally i can use my 8spd ultegra /mavic wheel). One day i will rebuild it with 100% campa but until than i just ride it and have fun with it.

unworthy1

nice bike anyway...only things that worry me are a DuraAce crank on a Campy spindle, that could be an issue. Plus just an oddity: you say it's 120mm rear spacing but the short dropouts have the PortaCatena holes which mean they date this frame to post 1978. I don't know if that's a Zeus built fork or just a Zeus crown, AFAIK Zeus was not a supplier of complete forks to other marques, but their frame bits were sold to and used by many others.

Dennispeeters

By the way.... thanx for all the compliments, all.

How would that be a problem, would they argue with eachother in Japanese/Italian.....
But seriously, square tapered bracket= square tapered bracket in my book, never heard of differences between Italian/Japanese.

Combined with the pat. 80 campa-derailleur that would date it to 1980-ish, that would fit, wouldn't it.

When did the standard change from 5-6 speed to 7 speed?

EDIT: Investigated the matter myself, and came to the conclusion that a frame build in the early eighties with 120mm spacing is not uncommon:
taken from:
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...+frame+spacing

And even in 1982 Dura-ace was still 5-6-speed:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano1982/index.html

Is it weird that I'm enjoying the fact I haven't bought a real (boring?) Colnago?
I like my Mystery-bike... I love playing the investigator...!

Grtz
Dennis

leunkstar

Yeah Ita/Jap can be a problem:

See the site of the late Sheldon Brown:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html#square
and
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

On the other hand: i'm running a campa crankset on a shimano cartridge at the moment.

unworthy1

Besides the taper difference between Campy (let's call it ISO for now) and Shimano (JIS) there is also the shell diameter and threading difference (36mm x 24tpi versus 1.37" x 24tpi) as well as the shell width difference (70mm versus 68mm). But people can and do get away with the mis-match between the crank and spindle tapers, and you might even have a JIS spindle with Campy cups in that BB (Shimano DID and still does make BB for Italian BB shells). If the crank "bottoms out" on the too-small spindle so that you can't tighten the crank bolts, then you do have a problem...only you can answer that question.
There's no clear cut-off between 5 speed (120mm rear spacing) and 6 speed (126mm) but by the early 80s most mass-produced bikes, especially on the higher end, had made the switch. The manufacturers (like even "cutting edge" Shimano) continued to offer 5 speed components for many years hence, cause there were still old bikes (and old f*rts who own them) that wanted the stuff. Heck, you can even buy brand new 5-speed freewheels made in China or Indonesia today...I've bought them myself.
BTW, the white Rolls saddle is very much in fashion with the fixie crowd, if it cleans up well and you decide to sell it...you probably can make enough to buy another Ericophon

mrrabbit 

Funny someone said Zeus....because that was my immediate reaction...

Bottom bracket shell looks very much like mine (mine being a newer bike).
Fork crown ditto...but no side engraving.
Same lug cutouts.

I would say Razesa is a strong possiblity as well as they produced for Zeus.

But if it were a late 70s or very early 80s Zeus or Razesa - wouldn't it be French threading? If what you have is BSC or Italian then you pretty much eliminate Zeus / Razesa - correct me if I'm wrong.

=8-)

mrrabbit 

Can you provide a frontal shot of the headtube....looking for a slight point in the lugs as they wrap around the front.

=8-)

Dennispeeters

Shot of the headtube is not necessary... and my camera is flat
No points there... in more than one way
I don't think it's a Zeus, the fork crown is, maybe the lugs.... but if it were a Zeus, it would be more logical if it had Zeus dropouts too (they're Campy).

I don't worry too much about the BB, because I think that underneath that sloppy paintjob is a well put together bike, although it's not a Colnago.

I've checked the Headtube for ridges or markings by the way.... I now know it's not Columbus.
Anyone know how to figure out what tubing is used? (weighing or something).

@unworthy..... the Ericophon was bought about 10 yrs ago for about 5 dutch guilders, then about 10 bucks.... but I've checked ebay.... might sell it.... they've skyrocketed thnx for the tip.
And I'll keep the White Rolls myself, I have the same one on my Singlespeed Rockhopper MTB.... Love it.
And pssst.... don't tell anyone... but I'm gonna be a posenger.... probably gonna convert my Mystery bike to a Coastie-Singlespeed, and keep the parts for a future real classic-bike restoration, because there's no way to determin how to build this one up to original splendor.
Or if the paint is damaged enough I'm gonna strip (maybe find decals) and rebuild it then.
(or am I gonna get banned for saying that on this forum)

Dennispeeters

Ehm....actually... I said that myself.... about the fork, in the original thread.

Show us your bottom then.....

And Zeus frames don't need to have the extra points as this picture shows:


This one is silver, mine is gold.... who knows....

And for the time being I'll leave my BB in place... since I don't really know the difference between threadings, and do not have the tools, so I might break something....

cudak888 

With all due respect, fact of the matter is that Shimano spindles are not as cut-and-dried as Sheldon stated. Shimano has produced ISO-taper spindles, and it is not uncommon to find them either, but they require the use of matching Shimano thin-cups. Consequently, the width between bearing races on the spindle are also wider then normal 68 or 70mm spindles.

For that matter, when changing out the BB on my '61 Paramount on Thursday (with one of these ISO-taper Shimano BB's), one of the other spindles under consideration was an ISO Sugino (and by no means track equipment either). Don't recall if it came off my '84-dated Sugino GLP crankset, or an older Mighty Comp.



-Kurt

unworthy1

I won't ban you or anyone else who wants to make a SS out of a fake Colnago with a Zeus fork: go ahead and have fun with it. Keeping the parts for another bike is always a good idea in my book.