timverena

Hello! Briefly about me first of all. I'm a 39 year old Englishman, living in Austria. I've got 8 bikes, all of which are still used, with the exception of one (an Orbit) which i rode around the world 10 years ago (the trip took two years!). I've had a Holdsworth for 20 years from new, but the bike in question here is a much older Holdsworth belonging to my dad. He bought it second-hand in 1982 when I was 12. Because of the fancy lugs it seems to be really old, and on the bottom bracket is written 7229 (presumably the frame number) and also, upside down in relation to that, the number 110. I was over in England last month and we took these photos without cleaning the bike first, but that proves that it's still being used regularly, despite the English weather!!! I used this bike for my first long distance tours in Europe in my late teens, and back then it was fitted with drop-handlebars and old Shimano components. I think that the 531 sticker on the downtube was not originally on the bike (maybe also those on the forks), but when my dad bought it he was told it was 531. Any ideas how old it is?? Thanks for your help! Tim.

Charles Wahl

Those are 80s-vintage Reynolds decals. Being a Holdsworth, it's probably got a 531 DB tubeset, though. Is the strap welded across the top of the seatstays for terminating a brake cable? If so, then the frame was built for centerpull brakes, and that provides some clue to the vintage.

cudak888 

Decals date from post-1982. I do not know when Nervex stopped producing the Professional lug lineup, although the most recent machine I can think of off the top of my head that used them were the '79 Schwinn Paramounts.

Curious, was this machine ever resprayed in the course of your owning it? Not particularly important if those decals were, indeed, added afterwards.

-Kurt

timverena

thanks charles and cudak. have just called my dad about this... he said that when he bought the bike, it was already old. he bought it off a guy who was setting up a business selling second-hand bikes, and that this guy had probably applied the yellow holdsworth logo (hard to see in the photos but it runs down the seat-tube, with another yellow "H" on the head-tube). The usual holdsworth shield (as on my '88 model) is not there, and the bike has not been re-sprayed while we've had it. the strap doesn't seem to be for centre-pull brakes (it has no features or holes to my knowledge. the matter of lugs is a strange one... i've found pictures on the internet of a '71 model with apparently the same simple lugs as my '88 model, and also a 70's frame with fancy lugs which it seems could be had as an optional extra, but then are not the same lugs as on my dad's...

dbakl

I'd think early 70s at the latest, with the Nervex bottom bracket shell. Pump pegs (broken) say 60s to me. Parts of course are far from original. Most the ones I recall used a simplier lug than Nervex, and with the curved brake bridge I'd guess 60s. Looks repainted.

timverena

thanks for that... i would agree that the paint is probably not original. 60s sounds good!

unworthy1

How sure are you of it being a Holdsworth? I'm not familiar with all the models, but this site should provide hours of gazing:
https://homepage.ntlworld.com/nkilgariff/
Most of the early models did not use Nervex Pro lugs or BB shells, that's something I just don't associate with Holdsworth: fancy lugs, yes, Prugnat lugs, yes. Judging by what's there: it's most likely a high grade British frame of 531 or at least partially 531, and likely from sometime between the late '50s and early '70s, But I'm not convinced (yet) of it being a Holdsworth.
Another thought: there's a brazed-on BB cable guide for the RD, but nothing for a front, and no sign of one being there but breaking off. That makes me think it might have been a 5-speed.

timverena

thanks for the link.. very interesting! the five-speed idea is interesting, though there are down-tube braze-ons for two gear-levers (could have been added later though??). i'm also trying to find out via other routes, and one holdsworth-knowledgeable person thinks he's nailed it as a british 531 frame circa 1961, probably built by holdsworth but the 4-digit frame number doesn't tally. therefore he suggests it could have been built on behalf of another marque... i've asked my dad to go and get the forks removed to check the number on the steerer. it's becoming rather intriguing!!

unworthy1

very unlikely that a bike with these visible features (those cable guides, the pump pegs, etc.) would have come with standard downtube shifter bosses. I don't think they were even available (except perhaps Huret or Simplex specific models) when this frame was built, but anything's possible. Wonder what else (like the BB cable guide on drive side only?) was added when the brazer was working.

timverena

if i was over in england (which i won't be until christmas) i'd strip the bike right down (when my dad is not looking of course!) clean it and photograph it again... maybe that would give some more clues. it's amazing the details that you guys are picking up on! thanks a lot!!

rocoach

Why not take it down to the shop in Putney and get them to look at it for you?

timverena

i'd like to do that.. would be a nice pilgrimmage as well.. whenever i've got the time!! i'll do it one day!

Skip Magnuson

Hi Tim,
I've been "collecting" Holdsworth serial numbers for 3 or 4 years and have about 50 plus another 20 which I haven't added to the list. From What I see from my listings is that Holdsworth started with 4 digit numbers dating back into the 1940s and in early 1950s went to a 5 digit number which became a 6 digit number in the 1970s which lasted into the 1980s. Also the headbadges changed from brass to aluminum to brass to decals. Your 7229 could place it in the late 1940s. Does it have a brass headbadge? My data gets much better with the 5 digit numbers. Maybe one of these days I'll update my record and have a better picture.
Cheers,
Skip

unworthy1

hang on: while digging around for info concerning another bike (which maybe or may not be a Holdsworth) I came across pics of a 1955 Holdsworth Typhoon; a path/road racer with Nervex Pro lugs! Guess they used them after all, on at least one model.
(photo courtesy of UK Lightweights, bike owned by John Gray, thanks)

timverena

wow.. how about that!! those lugs are indeed the same. does anybody know how long nervex produced those pro lugs?? (e.g. 1950 to 1965? that's a complete guess by the way!!). nice badge on that red bike. my dad's has no badge and as far as i know there is no trace of one having been there...

cudak888 

From my earlier post:

"I do not know when Nervex stopped producing the Professional lug lineup, although the most recent machine I can think of off the top of my head that used them were the '79 Schwinn Paramounts."

-Kurt

viscount

One thing I know about Holdworths is that their numbering is sequential.
My 1947 La Quelda is 8803.
If yours is 7229 that tells you lots!
Providing that it is the right number...

unworthy1

hmmm, could it be as old as the '40s? maybe...but seems later than that to me.
concerning the venerable Nervex pro lugs, according to this fine article from Classic Lightweights UK
https://www.classiclightweights.co.uk...ts/nervex.html
they first made an appearance on UK frames in 1950, but could still be found on current-production Mercians in 2004 (that's one hell-of-a long run for any bicycle component line!)

cudak888 

2004? I'd guess that Mercian kept a stockpile of these.

-Kurt

timverena

i suppose one questions is... did the design of the nervex pro lugs change over the years, or were the early ones identical to the latest ones?? unfortunately my dad says it will be a while before he gets the bike to A. Butterworth's in sheffield to have it checked (ie serial number on steerer)... mr butterworth is apparently snowed under with (lesser!!) bikes to repair... should happen in september though

cudak888 

Far as I know, I've never seen a true Pro differ in any form. Nervex did make similar models to the Pro which did differ, but they simply are not Nervex Pro's in any sense of the term.

I think Stan (Scooper) has an old Nervex catalog that shows this.

-Kurt

timverena

that would be cool to see. if it really is about fifty years old, should we have anything to worry about, safety-wise? one of my bikes broke its forks after only a few years (ok, it was nothing compared to a top quality hand-built british frame). it's not been a high mileage machine and, though not very clean, hasn't been abused at all. some of my own bikes are getting on a bit... is there an easy way to have them x-rayed for hairline cracks??

Nixtrix

I tend to agree with those that say it might not be a Holdworth, but then I also based that on thinking they didn't use nervex pro lugs, which has since been disproved. The angles look so shallow compared to modern racing irons.

On the lug front, a fiend of mine had a Mercian built, probably around 1975, and that was built with Nervex pros.

As an aside, my Mum and Dad both worked for Holdsworth, until approx 1955, when the married, left and headed out of London. My dream was always to own a Holdsworth. This I achieved eventually, owning 3... 2 of which I still have, albeit one is a Roy Thame, which as far as I'm concerned is a Holdsworth!

timverena

thanks nixtrix... nice background info.
i'm still waiting for my dad to get the forks removed! maybe at christmas, when i next visit, i'll do it for him.. then we may know more.

luker

It could have, of course, a replacement fork. 60 years is a long time to ride without center-punching a dog or something, so don't be dismayed if the numbers don't match. The frame has a steep head tube angle coupled with a lazy seat tube, and that is how English bikes from the 30's and 40's were built.

The thing that gives the bike a modern look is that gradual rake on the fork. It was more common to see almost all of the curve of the fork in the last six inches or so, and that is why I suspect a replacement (there were bikes made with modern fork rakes back then, though...)