vjp

I was visiting with a friend yesterday who is a master machinist/fabricator. He is deep into a crazy project of fabricating 10 Excelsior Henderson board track racers. He started with a photograph and a piece of engine casing and has sold 3 of them already. They run! They are $150,000 right now and like a limited edition print they are priced higher as they sell out.

We started talking about the bike biz and the value/price of current hand built bikes and then about reproducing vintage bikes.

I have lot's of ideas about bikes that I would love to have but I am curious what you would love to have a "New" one of. Not so much the brand names and logos but the angles, materials and ride that you would die for. Maybe it is modernized to take a mix of newer gear?

GV27

I guess some people like repros, but I'm not really one of them. Doesn't make sense.

OTOH, if you want a new and modern frame with classic styling, there are plenty to choose from. Mercian and Rivendell come to mind immediately.

C

repechage

How about the new Rene Herse's beginning "production"?

Even authorized by a Herse.

An the pricing for them is not cheap, but not stupid expensive either.

Citoyen du Monde

I can't think of anything more distasteful than to spend money on one of these bikes. It shouts "FRED" with more "dollars" than "sense". I know that I am not alone in laughing at the people who are buying these bikes.

Just think about it, Herse closed down in the 80's because nobody was buying their bikes and the money to be earned didn't make sense to keep it open. Now some goofball offers to pay Lyli money to "buy" the brand. Lyli would be silly to turn down the money. Her motivation is quite simply the free money. But what does the consumer get out of this? Nothing, except an additional surcharge.

vjp

I saw the Rene Herse bikes at the NAHBS and spoke briefly with Mike Kone who owns the Herse marque. The bikes are BEAUTIFUL and built in the philosophy and with the blessing of the Herse family. It is a very hotly debated topic about reviving these "brands" and that is not what I was originally asking about.

What I mean to ask, If you could buy a modern bike that rode and looked like (in spirit) your favorite, PX10/Masi GC/Cinelli SC/ Colnago Super etc. and it was a reasonable price, would you be interested?

eagleb

I know from my perspective, part of the glory of riding c&v is that you don't have to buy a new bike. Depreciation has already been factored in. Since they were made well to begin with, they still ride well and look good. A modern reproduction may look like the vintage bike, but you'll be paying a premium. And it won't have a soul.
I'm sure it would still be eye candy though, and as close to NOS as you could get.

StephenH

I see a lot of enthusiasm for "classic" bikes. But what I don't see is a lot of enthusiasm for any ONE bike, and that seems to me to be what you'd need to make reproductions work well. I've seen some reproductions of antique bikes, not sure how they sold.

Otis

Kone is not a goofball, and the work on the modern Herse's is top quality. I do not think it insults the original marque if done with respect and love for the originals.

It's distasteful to me to judge people on how they spend their OWN money.

And "Fred's" are the guys here that ride Paramounts in sneakers with the stem six inches out of the steerer (I say that with love).

vjp

Here is an example,

The Bridgestone RB1 is rightfully considered a "cult classic" and they are well spoken of and have a following. Grant Petersen designed the RB1 off of a 1970's Colnago Super. If a bike like the RB1 was still available do you think it would sell? How many Surly's are sold, and LOVED! They are not even close to riding as nice as my old Colnago and by the time you build one up they are certainly not any kind of "deal".

I think a classic bike built in a reasonable fashion without all the preaching like Riv would be popular for both c/v fans that want a regular rider and for the Surly owner who would like a bike with a little more care put into the design/fit/finish.

eagleb

If the price is right, it will be purchased. Whether or not that's feasible is to be determined by the builder.

Kommisar89

There was this Masi Clone Project: https://www.speedplay.com/speedplaylabs/masi/index.html

I've considered this as well but there is no way there would be enough of a market for any one bike to justify tooling up an assembly line for it. That leaves you with custom made. That's cool but not cheap. A local builder here in town who does really nice work would charge around $1900 to build a custom lugged, silver-brazed, steel frame and fork. That would include paint but not chrome which you would almost certainly need to reproduce an old bike so add another $500-1000 or so if you want that look. And that assumes that the correct lugs, fork crown, drop-outs, and bottom bracket could be found. If you need to custom make any of that the price would go up considerably I'm sure.

Now if you mean just building a modern steel frame to the same specs/geometry as some old classic frame, you could no doubt do that and sell a few but how would that be different than any of the current custom frame builders out there building really nice steel frames?

One thought I had if I ever won the lottery or had some rich uncle I don't know about die and leave me lot's of money would be to buy an actual old classic frame and then have a frame builder take it apart and rebuild it using the original lugs et al with the frame custom sized for me

One other possibility would be for an existing manufacturer to tool up to do a "retro" bike like the Ford did with the Mustang. Schwinn is apparently getting ready to do that with the Paramount, having a steel frame version built in Waterford and I have hope for that one while Bianchi is trying to pass off a cheesy Taiwanese bike of questionable quality with classic Bianchi styling queues that I think will be a disapointment.

gridplan

I don't like the idea of even more repros on the market. Would the frames you're talking about be distinct enough from the originals to tell them apart if they were repainted and re-badged as originals? I have a lot invested in my vintage collection. The last thing I want as a collector is an even tougher time than I now have distinguishing real from repro. That was a concern I voiced to Mike Kone when he announced the resurrection of the Herse marque.

vjp

The million dollar question

In my mind (simple) it would be based on classic specs/geometry but without the "preciousness" that was rampant at NAHBS. It would be available now instead of in "6 years" and would be a great bike for 98% of the people that wanted a nice steel bike.

deez

how about manufacturing reproduction parts for C&V bikes. like make a Bottom Bracket that fits english Raleighs Or a repro of a nice 120mm 5 speed hub.

vjp

Repro was a poor choice on my part and I apologize for the confusion. I am not thinking of taking a defunct name/brand and re-tooling it like Herse. In my creative discussion with my friend the original idea was closer to Ibis and their Scorcher. Build a classic bike in a particular style and offer it for a reasonable price . It won't change every season and their won't be more than a few variations.

So what would be the inspiration be? Colnago,Masi,DeRosa....???

dbakl

Didn't they stop because the guy building them was older than God and there was no one else to pick up the torch?

GV27

Well, that's the thing. Bike's designed in the "spirit" of a bygone era are out there. Mariposa for one. The Bridgestones were mentioned - but what else is Rivendell but Grant Petersen's continuation of his designs and vision for those bikes.

Then, like I said, there's Mercian. A classic name, a cult classic - still made in the same way by the same folks that have been making them for 60 years. Plus they're relatively cheap. I've wanted one since I used to hang around the Boulder Spoke when I was 11 years old, talking to their team riders on Mercians and lusting after the multitude of beautiful Mercian frames hanging on the walls. I'm saving my pennys for exactly that right now. ($800 or so - custom geometry, silver brazed lugged steel - not bad!).

That said, taking an old name and sticking it on a new frame with no real connection to the original other than someone's idea of "spirit" holds no allure for me.

Colnago and DeRosa are still made by the same folks at the same factories and sold to the same audience they always sold to - the pro peloton (well, they give them to them) and all the folks that want to emulate their heros. Masi is now made in the same spirit of the old frames by Tim "Masi Guy" Jackson.



Chris

Lazyass

Eh, that's kind of snobbish.

Yes. People complain about the new Mustang and Challengers out now being too "retro", but they're selling like hot cakes. The new Camaro will be the same. Same anology would work with bikes, especially since vintage road bikes are becoming very popular in the mainstream public.

Kommisar89

Ok but there are a gajillion builders out there whose name you or I have never heard of that could build anything you want like Eric here in town (https://groundupdesigns.com/index.php?id=667). He still charges $1900 for the type of frame we're talking about and I'd be surprised if you could find a nice custom frame cheaper. I think he charges $1200 for a TIG welded frame with no fork. Delivery in about a month. But I think you're looking for something mass produced like a Surly but nicer.

Well, he's your opportunity - just form your own company and contract a manufacturer in Taiwan or China to build to your specs. Just please do a better job than Bianchi

sailorbenjamin

I like reproductions because I feel a little more free to monkey with them. I wouldn't hot rod an old Porsche 550 spyder or an origional 53 Corvette but if I had a replica I would feel a little freer to personalize it.
Like the Schwinn crate repo that I chopped up the other day to make a recumbant. I wouldn't have done that to a nice origional. Yes I'll post pics when it looks a little more like a bike.

fender1

You desrcribed me. I am wearing Converse Chuck Taylors in an effort to keep things "period correct".

vjp

I think that you could production build in NA and offer a really nice bike at a very fair price and everyone involved could be happy. Obviously you can't hire someone to build you bikes at $1,900 a pop and stay in business.

Better than my 1980 Bianchi Super Leggera? That would be a good goal

spider-man

Personally, across the board among consumer goods other than food (and perhaps a few other exceptions), I prefer the actual old thing to the "retro" new thing.

Citoyen du Monde

The same builder is still alive and well more than 20 years later, so the answer is no he was not older than god. Plus you know how many frame builders were left without work in the 80's in France? You could have found any number of them able to take over after an apprenticeship.

Kommisar89

Hmmm...I don't know. A guy I work with used to work at the Huffy factory I think in Oklahoma or somewhere like that and he described the assembly line of usually native american workers wielding TIG welders building frames as fast as they could with stringent quotas to meet. And we know what Huffy turned out. And I'm pretty sure theirs are built in China or Taiwan now. Maybe with robotics you could do it (the same guy told me they had a robotic frame welding machine but nobody knew how to program it or keep it running so they didn't use it - this was in the 80's I think). Actually I don't really think it would matter. The Taiwanese make a quality product when that is what the specs call for. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the recent Bianchi steel frames made of Reynolds 631 tubing in their Taiwan facility other than the ugly TIG welding although even those are becoming hard to find in the lineup.

As for your 1980 Bianchi Super Leggera, well that's relative. There are those (a lot of them are over on the CR list ) who would argue that Bianchis are nothing special. I favor Bottecchias and abuse is heeped upon them regularly. How do we decide which bike to copy? Now that would start an arguement. I vote for the early 90's Bottecchia TSX bikes in red/white and chrome. Then again, you could just buy a brand new Cinelli SuperCorsa frame build with Columbus Neuron tubing and save yourself a whole lot of trouble.

Check out the SuperCorsa in the Cinelli catalog: https://www.cinelli.it/EN/pdf/catalog...lette_2008.pdf