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Torpado (italy) unknown year

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Torpado (italy) unknown year

Old 08-25-08, 06:51 PM
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Torpado (italy) unknown year

Hi everyone,

Is it worth doing any additional work on this bike?

My brother and I got it for 60bucks from a friends (too short) who put 160$ worth on new tires, saddle and tape in time for summer. We use it as a beater when it rains.... or should we?

Heres what i know: Its a Torpado (italy), its equipped with campagnolo shifters, has universal breaks mod. 61 , and french chromed RIGIDA wheels.
I dont know what year, what model name... -i know nothing really

after researching the closest i got to were these:
https://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...r_1960_Baggio/
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...hlight=torpado


here are pics:

General
https://picasaweb.google.com/Renaud.d...17367691172450

Front breaks
https://picasaweb.google.com/Renaud.d...17470400607954

Rear derailleur
https://picasaweb.google.com/Renaud.d...17439565318418

FD
https://picasaweb.google.com/Renaud.d...17457190243778

before quick metal polishing
https://picasaweb.google.com/Renaud.d...17720672188978

after quick metal polishing
https://picasaweb.google.com/Renaud.d...17734425971618

Thanks for any advice, help and comments

Renaud
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Old 08-25-08, 07:40 PM
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A good beater, its basically a fancy looking bike boom bike. At least loose the kickstand, dork disc, and change that "fat man" sprung saddle if ya can find something more proper.

Oh, ya might wanna swap the wheelet for alloy ones so you dont die trying to stop in the rain.
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Old 08-25-08, 11:42 PM
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It's a lower end model. Plain hi-tensile steel frame, steel cottered crank, steel wheels, Campagnolo Valentino derailleurs. The Universal Model 61 brakes are nicer than usual for that level bike. I'll second what divineAndbright said - loose the kickstand and dork disc and replace the steel wheels and funky saddle with something more appropriate and you'll have a nice, if not particularly valuable, ride.
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Old 08-26-08, 02:14 AM
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These bikes are not entirely uncommon in Montreal, yours might have a sticker on the downtube stating that it was imported by Baggio in Montreal.

Actually, here it is;



Here's mine, currently sitting in the stable.





I don't know anything about the model or year either.
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Old 08-26-08, 08:08 AM
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I'd say low-end 70s bike boom bike.
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Old 08-26-08, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by dbakl
I'd say low-end 70s bike boom bike.
But a cool one. And sometimes these things have pretty lightweight (though flimsy) frames, don't they?
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Old 08-26-08, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rhm
But a cool one. And sometimes these things have pretty lightweight (though flimsy) frames, don't they?
Nah, usually gaspipe built to an older design...
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Old 08-26-08, 10:05 AM
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Back in 1988 I spent 6 months in Hawaii going to school, errr riding my bike, partying, and diving, and sometimes going to class

There was a guy on a yellow Torpado that I saw all the time. He could mash that thing. I'm not sure what model he had, I don't remember ever seeing any graphics other than the name Torpado.

I never once thought of it as an entry level bike. Might be that I can't get my brain cell wrapped around the concept of a Campy equipped "entry" level anything. Seems contradictory.

I don't think I would use it as a beater bike. Plenty of other candidates for that out there.
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Old 08-26-08, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by txvintage
Might be that I can't get my brain cell wrapped around the concept of a Campy equipped "entry" level anything. Seems contradictory.
Ever ride the Campagnolo Valentino?

It was the lowest of the low, designed solely so a bike manufacturer could say, "Campagnolo Equipped". Even the cheap French stuff worked better...
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Old 08-26-08, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by dbakl
Ever ride the Campagnolo Valentino?

It was the lowest of the low, designed solely so a bike manufacturer could say, "Campagnolo Equipped". Even the cheap French stuff worked better...
Ah, the Mirage of it's day, lol.

I have an Athena grouped bike with Chorus brakes. It's pretty much the "lowest" grouped Campy bike I've ever ridden.
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Old 08-26-08, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by txvintage
I never once thought of it as an entry level bike. Might be that I can't get my brain cell wrapped around the concept of a Campy equipped "entry" level anything. Seems contradictory.
It's all relative - many folks here would call anything that wasn't full NR and 531 gaspipe junk. I would disagree with that. If you remember back in the day, there were many, many heavy 40-lb department store bikes that you might consider "entry level". Then there were the Schwinn Varsinentals, better but still 40-lb anchors. Then you got to a bike shop that sold European bikes and there still might have been one or two models below that Torpado. So in that sense it would have been several models up from the true bottom of the line. So in this case when I think "entry level" I'm thinking "entry level into quality Italian road bikes" not bottom of the line bike you could buy.

Now you could point out that the frames were an older design, but that design was the standard Italian stage racing geometry through the 60's (and we're talking early 70's here I assume) and rode quite nicely. And the frames were relatively light. With aluminum rims and crank the bikes could come in under 25-lbs vs around 21-lb for a typical high-end bike. And while Campagnolo Valentino wasn't the best, it was certainly more reliable than it's primary competitor, the Simplex Prestige.

Now as to whether you consider it a beater, I guess that depends on what you would do with a beater. I certainly wouldn't abuse it but I'd probably be inclined to leave it parked outside or ride it in the rain when necessary just like I would have back in the day. I put cross tires on my UO8 and take it off road sometimes, often on packed dirt or gravel and sometimes even on real single track. Use it like it was intended.
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Old 08-26-08, 12:33 PM
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I know nothing about the mark but I do not believe it is a bargain basement bike. 70's cheap bikes did not come with center pull brakes or Chrome on the frame or forks. Just look at the old Varsity and Continentals that seem to be so cherished. I seem to remember the early Conti's did have center pulls. The fancy lugs are also a clue as to the quality. I say use it and abuse it but do not beat it.
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Old 08-26-08, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by txvintage
Ah, the Mirage of it's day, lol.

I have an Athena grouped bike with Chorus brakes. It's pretty much the "lowest" grouped Campy bike I've ever ridden.
No, that would be Xenon. And back in the day there were components called 'Sport' at various times that were lower that Valentino but I've never actually seen those on a bike.
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Old 08-26-08, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by dbakl
Nah, usually gaspipe built to an older design...
It's likely to be sound but flexy, and show the benefits of old-time geometry. The parts are nothing to write home about, but you can definitely do better than teh Campy Valentino on there. If you clean and overhaul everything and tune the Valentino perfectly you will have the riding experience that many of us 50 plussers vowed to grow out of while in high school. It won't be a bad ride, but it will not be the best of Italian steel and component artistry, either.

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Old 08-26-08, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Kommisar89
Now you could point out that the frames were an older design, but that design was the standard Italian stage racing geometry through the 60's (and we're talking early 70's here I assume) and rode quite nicely. And the frames were relatively light. With aluminum rims and crank the bikes could come in under 25-lbs vs around 21-lb for a typical high-end bike. And while Campagnolo Valentino wasn't the best, it was certainly more reliable than it's primary competitor, the Simplex Prestige.

I had a Falcon in this class, not a bad ride, but not as good as the Real Italian I got after it.

I think the Valentinos shifted a bit worse than the Simplex. I rode my friends' Raleigh Gran Prix and UO-8s, and the Simplex usually worked better than the Campy.

I think this bike could date back to as early as 1966 thru 1970. After '70 this class of Italians were starting to come through with some Japanese gruppos. Better function, same frames and saddles.
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Old 08-27-08, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
I had a Falcon in this class, not a bad ride, but not as good as the Real Italian I got after it..
Agreed, more money tends to buy a better bike and time tends to imrprove technology so a later bike at the same level would be likely to perform better.

Originally Posted by Road Fan
I think the Valentinos shifted a bit worse than the Simplex. I rode my friends' Raleigh Gran Prix and UO-8s, and the Simplex usually worked better than the Campy..
Again, agreed, at least when they were new. The Prestige derailleurs on my UO8 still shift very nicely. I don't know how many miles they have on them. We bought the bike used around '92 and my wife never rode it much so the derailleurs could be fairly low mileage.

Originally Posted by Road Fan
I think this bike could date back to as early as 1966 thru 1970. After '70 this class of Italians were starting to come through with some Japanese gruppos. Better function, same frames and saddles.
I don't know about that. I've never seen anything Italian as early as '70 with Japanese components. My 1974 Bottecchia Special (about the same level as that Torpado) came with Simplex Prestige derailleurs, an Ofmega crank, Campy Tipo hubs, Fiamme aluminum yellow label clincher rims, Universal brakes, and Clement tires. Nothing at all Japanese. I usually think of Japanese components just starting on bikes of that class in the mid 70's.
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Old 08-27-08, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Flow
Here's mine, currently sitting in the stable..


Man thats a nice looking Torpado. I love those lugs and fork crown.

Very sweet.
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Old 08-27-08, 07:26 AM
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The subject bicycle is boom era (1971-1974), second from the bottom of the line, from a reputable Italian manufacturuer. The bottom of the line model featured Simplex Prestige derailleurs. It is arguable as to whether the Valentino or Prestige was a better derailleur system, as they both had problems and merits, however national pride made the Italians spec Simplex on their bottom of the line model. The Valentino was rarely found on non-Italian models.

As for Italian bicycles being spec'd with Japanese components during the boom, that is incorrect. Japanese components were found primarily on Japanese and North American models. Europeans tended to cling to domestic components on the basis on national pride and the belief that the their long association with cycling, particularly racing, would natually produce better components. Of course, this belief did not hold true with the North American population, which was largely ignorant of the history of cycling and the technical merits of the components. They bought the Japanese bicycles because they were better finished (smoother, shinier paint and no brazing blobs or gaps), thad wider gearing, stem shifters and brake safety levers. The last three criteria cannot be overemphasized. The typical US buyer had just outgrown his Stingray and was not used to the bent over position or strong enough to handle the narrow range European gearing. Only after the Japanese cornered the entry level market did the Europeans take notice and spec Japanese components, a trend which started taking place largely in the late 1970s.

As for worthwhile updates, I would agree that wheels with aluminum rims would be first on my list. Second, I would replace the front derailleur, but keep the original in case I decided to resell the bicycle. Saddles are very much a personal choice so you may want consider something else. Yes, I'd remove the kickstand but not the spoke protector plate, as in my experience the Valentino does not hold its settings well and one overshift is all you need to wish you had kept the protector.
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Old 08-27-08, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar

The subject bicycle is boom era (1971-1974), second from the bottom of the line, from a reputable Italian manufacturuer.

As for Italian bicycles being spec'd with Japanese components during the boom, that is incorrect. Japanese components were found primarily on Japanese and North American models. Europeans tended to cling to domestic components on the basis on national pride and the belief that the their long association with cycling, particularly racing, would natually produce better components. Of course, this belief did not hold true with the North American population, which was largely ignorant of the history of cycling and the technical merits of the components. They bought the Japanese bicycles because they were better finished (smoother, shinier paint and no brazing blobs or gaps), thad wider gearing, stem shifters and brake safety levers. The last three criteria cannot be overemphasized. The typical US buyer had just outgrown his Stingray and was not used to the bent over position or strong enough to handle the narrow range European gearing. Only after the Japanese cornered the entry level market did the Europeans take notice and spec Japanese components, a trend which started taking place largely in the late 1970s.
As a high schooler in the late '60s and college freshman, I spent a LOT of time haunting the bike shops of the North Side of Chicago. My memory may be fuzzy, but I recall in the EARLY '70s being disappointed that lower-end Italian bikes were starting to show some Japanese parts. Plus if some historian has established the the Bike Boom was in fact the years you say, I stand corrected.

My Italian bike I refer to was in fact not a more modern bike, but less modern. It was one of an odd lot of Rossignolis that Turin Cycles had found, with a hodge-podge of excellent but obsolete components: Campy steel Record, early hubs, Nisi Evian (I think) rims in 36/28 spokings, a Magistroni and FB chainset, Sheffield pedals, a Brooks Pro and a wierd Simplex or AVA seatpost. The geometry was rather laid back with 44 or so cm chainstays, and it rode very smooth and very efficient. Tubing was a question mark but several shops commented on the quality of the frame while I had it. The bike was much higher quality than the Torpado we're talking about here.

You're speaking mainly in generalities and drawing hard specifiec conclusions, which I don't think has a good basis. I can't argue with the trends you claim. Even if you have examples of Italians of 1970 with all Italian componentry it doesn't disprove my recollections. At the same time I have no evidence, why would I have kept literature on bikes I wouldn't have considered buying?

I do truly think this bike could have been late '60s into the early '70s, because of bikes (Atala, Coppi, Fiorelli) that were available in Chicago, competing with Peugeot, Raleigh, Dawes, Mercier, and Gitane.

But what can we prove? Nothing.

It's clear this bike will probably be a decent rider, that it would benefit from rim and shift system upgrades, and I'd dare to say it will probably need a good saddle. A pair of (at least) toeclip MKS pedals would also be a worthwhile improvement. If the crankset is trashed, use Sheldon's site to spec out a cotterless replacement - don't go crazy with least weight, because of the value of the bike and the inherently heavy straight-guage steel drawn tubing - just get something that has some life in it and is modern enough to maintain. Don't treat this old girl as a valuable collectible - it isn't.

+1 on the spoke protector - don't trust the Valentino for stability.

Look for a 5-speed Shimano freewheel, it will shift a lot better than the original.

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Old 08-27-08, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
My Italian bike I refer to was in fact not a more modern bike, but less modern. It was one of an odd lot of Rossignolis that Turin Cycles had found, with a hodge-podge of excellent but obsolete components: Campy steel Record, early hubs, Nisi Evian (I think) rims in 36/28 spokings, a Magistroni and FB chainset, Sheffield pedals, a Brooks Pro and a wierd Simplex or AVA seatpost. The geometry was rather laid back with 44 or so cm chainstays, and it rode very smooth and very efficient. Tubing was a question mark but several shops commented on the quality of the frame while I had it. The bike was much higher quality than the Torpado we're talking about here.
From your description and the time period that sounds like a higher-end model, something similar to how my Bottecchia Giro d'Italia would have been equipped at the time, and I suspect it could have been a second from top of the line model maybe even built from Columbus tubing.

Just based on observations as I have no actual evidence, it seems like while Reynolds made a variety of 531 tubing that could be used to build bikes at different price points, Columbus only had SL & SP at the time so Italian bikes, that were usually made of Italian tubing, were either straight gauge hi-ten steel or Columbus double-butted chromoly. The proliferation of Columbus tubing types came later in the late 70's and the 80's and that's when we started seeing the straight gauge Columbus tubing and tretubi frames and such but not in the 60's.

I've tried to stir discussion on the topic of hi-tenisle tubing before without much success (yeah I know, it's not a very exciting topic) but I know of at least one Italian manufacturer, Atala, who specifically spec'd a different tubing identified as 'high tensile "Tullio" seemless tubing' on their mid-range model. Presumably this tubing was different from the tubing on their lower models which simply specified 'best quality seemless steel tubing' but I have no idea what that difference might have been.

Another thread I started that didn't go anywhere was one about whether distributors had any great effect on bike spec during the boom (which btw IIRC, there was a mini-boomlet in 68-70 when sales doubled and then the big boom in '71-'74 when sales doubled yet again). I started it because the component spec on my old Bottecchia Special differed fairly significantly from others I've seen, in many cases being much better, and I wondered whether a large distributor might have been able to order a shipment of bikes with specific components that differed from catalog spec. Something like that might explain why you remember seeing Italian bikes with Japanese components in 1970. Could a distributor have been ordering frames or partial bikes and "upgrading" them with the Japanese components?

I have Bottecchia catalogs for 1972 & 1973 and Atala from 1974 and there are no Japanese components listed for any of the models of those brands.
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Old 08-28-08, 04:39 AM
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I think some threads just die because people don't know or care about the topic. Sometimes Classic Rendezvous might be a better arena.

I know 10 Speed Drive formerly out of Florida influenced the design of high-end frame marques they took on as distributors, for example Woodrup. They viewed the American market as hungering for crit-ish geometries, and ordered such products from Woodrup - ended up with some odd touring bikes post 1982 or so.

Beyond that I couldn't say much about distributors. Turin and others had their own brands of entry-level French bikes, presumably built to their spec, but generally seeming similar to the Gitane and Motobecane common straight-guage steel products. Perhaps that's where I saw them, and perhaps it was later than 1971. I am only going on memory.

Warning: Potential Thread Hijack!!

That old Rossignoli was sold originally by Cicli Rossignoli and I presume made there, still an active cycle shop in Milano. Beyond that I don't know much. Never could identify the tubing; it could have been a mix. That would explain the lack of a label - Columbus was premium even in the '60s, who wouldn't toot that horn? Based on the supple ride, I assume it was not what we would now call SP or a straight guage, but along the lines of SL. It had Campy fork ends and dropouts, a forged fork crown, and nice Italian long-pointed lugs and BB shell. I wish I knew more about it. A similar frame sold with NR gruppo on Ebay for a pretty good price, but not my size. Oh yeah!!! I remember feeling a pin in the fork crown!

I really wish I knew the geometry, especially angles, rake, trail, and BB drop - all things I think affect ride. I'd like to see if a similar design is out there and get one.

It was priced about the same as a Raleigh Competition or Peugeot PX-10E, but not as light due to the older parts using more steel. Not cutting edge for the day, but a racing grade bike of (even then) yesterday.
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Old 08-28-08, 06:21 AM
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Thats really funny, I was in Cicli Rossignoli on Tuesday! Bought Mrs. Lotek a Cicli Rossignoli jersey.
I was given a very interesting CD that they made
of a classic bike show they held last year (I think). In the small courtyard behind the shop they had
bikes from Fausto, Bartalli, and a few other italian greats. The owner of the shop is something of
a C&Ver himself. . .
I'll post clips from the CD once I get it all sorted out (and back to the states).

Marty
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Old 08-28-08, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
...It was priced about the same as a Raleigh Competition or Peugeot PX-10E, but not as light due to the older parts using more steel. Not cutting edge for the day, but a racing grade bike of (even then) yesterday.
That makes sense - the top end all NR Italian stuff was waaay expensive but the second from the top models were generally about the same as a PX-10. I think you could argue that the PX-10 was a better bike in completely stock form but that's an arguement for another thread. In the early 70's my Giro d'Italia was around $250 with its Columbus frame, Campy dropouts, Prugnat lugs and all. And it was spec'd with the old style Record derailleur too although it frequently came with Valentino by the early 70's as the availability of the old Record rd's dwindled. The same Italian frame with full NR was around $450 at the time IIRC.
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Old 08-28-08, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
As a high schooler in the late '60s and college freshman, I spent a LOT of time haunting the bike shops of the North Side of Chicago. My memory may be fuzzy, but I recall in the EARLY '70s being disappointed that lower-end Italian bikes were starting to show some Japanese parts. Plus if some historian has established the the Bike Boom was in fact the years you say, I stand corrected.

...You're speaking mainly in generalities and drawing hard specifiec conclusions, which I don't think has a good basis. I can't argue with the trends you claim. Even if you have examples of Italians of 1970 with all Italian componentry it doesn't disprove my recollections. At the same time I have no evidence, why would I have kept literature on bikes I wouldn't have considered buying?

...But what can we prove? Nothing.
The period of the North American bicycle boom is quite easy to establish based on published sales figures. Starting in 1945, there was a general upward trend in sales from under 1 million, to 7 million in 1970. That’s an increase in annual sales of only 6 million bicycles over 25 years. Then 1971 saw sales increase by 2 million, jumping to 9 million. In 1972 sales were 12 million. Things peaked in 1973 with sales of 15 million. 1974 saw a slight decline to 14 million, then in 1975 the boom collapsed with sales falling to the pre-boom figure of 7 million. Based on these figures it’s evident that 1971-1974 were the boom years.

Yes, I was talking generalities but then, so were you. Like yourself, I have plenty of first-hand experience from the boom era. I started racing during the era and was wrenching in an LBS, taking over as manager in 1975. Consequently, I was well aware of the state of the industry during the period.

As previously stated, I do not recall any Italian models with Japanese components during this period. However, memory is fallible, so I did consult my literature. Looking at 1973/1974 entry level models for 12 full-range Italian brands (Atala, Bianchi, Bottecchia, Chiorda, Corsa, Cortina, Doniselli, Fiorelli, Frejus. Legnano, Maserati and Moretti) there were no models that were Japanese equipped.

Furthermore, I looked at literature for other, major European brands, as they were trendsetters that the smaller manufacturers followed. The earliest, and only boom era case, that I could find of Japanese components on European models, were on 1974 Motobecane entry level models. Gitane introduced Japanese equipped models in 1976, with Raleigh following in 1977. Peugeot held out until the mid-1980s.

I’m sure there are probably some isolated cases of European manufacturers who may have used Japanese components during the boom, most likely due to shortages or importer preference, but the objective evidence would seem to substantiate that the Italians (and European manufacturers in general) did not start using Japanese components, in any substantial volume, until the late 1970s.
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Old 08-28-08, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by lotek
Thats really funny, I was in Cicli Rossignoli on Tuesday! Bought Mrs. Lotek a Cicli Rossignoli jersey.
I was given a very interesting CD that they made
of a classic bike show they held last year (I think). In the small courtyard behind the shop they had
bikes from Fausto, Bartalli, and a few other italian greats. The owner of the shop is something of
a C&Ver himself. . .
I'll post clips from the CD once I get it all sorted out (and back to the states).

Marty

Very cool!
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