DARTHVADER

anyone using a phil wood BB with early 80's record cranks?

i have a set of '82 record crank arms that are sliding too far onto the "68-SS" spindle i have.
they are in fine shape so i can't really see them having worn tapers, but there is not room left for the drive side to go on any further. next time i take the arm off i'm scared it will be bottomed out when i go to bolt it back on.

secondly, i have a set of old campy 151bcd track cranks. the tapers on the "68-P-120" spindle I had was too small for these cranks. I put in a "68-SPc" spindle and they work great with this taper. I am confused with this.
is the C record taper larger???

so i'm thinking about getting a phil wood bottom bracket for the road bike so i can hopefully keep using those nice SR cranks. do i need ISO taper or JIS taper.
has anyone done this???

last, i'm going to run 10speed on this bike and if the 10 speed chain won't work with the Super record rings then i'm going to have to get newer cranks anyways.

cudak888 

That is, they're sliding too far onto the original, stock Campagnolo spindle, correct?

Spacing between the rings will be WAY to wide for the 10 speed chain - it'll drop right between the two rings. Even old, wide chains have a tendency to skate if the downshifting isn't crisp enough.

Take care,

-Kurt

DARTHVADER

yeah.
the thing that has me a little baffled is the difference in fit between the 68p120 spindle and the 68SPc spindle.


oh yeah, i didn't think about the spacing between the two rings on the front...crap. looks like i will have to get newer cranks.

cudak888 

Any chance you can get me a photo of these two spindles? Or at least, the 68SPc? I'm familiar with the 68-SS; that is the old Nuovo Record standard spindle, which SHOULD work with these cranks. The others I am a bit in the dark on, though a track spindle of the same era should have a proper fit just the same.

That said, I've also once ran an NR crankset on a JIS taper for two years (SHAME!), and finally mounted it to a proper ISO spindle when one came along. No problems, fit fine, but then again, I didn't abuse them when I ran it on the JIS spindle.

-Kurt

dbakl

Hmm, are the cups and spindle both the same vintage? They changed the dimensions over the years though I'm not that up on all that.

68-SS is the standard double spindle for English/Japanese/French.

P-120 and SPc are not the typical markings I've run across with Record, NR or SR: don't know what they mean.

As far as I know, the 151s and the 144s all used the same taper and crank mounting; at least I've not run across any that were different. Sorry, my knowledge of Campagnolo never advanced beyond 1984...

I'd think if you searched a bit you could come up with a spindle that would work. Campagnolo's design was the standard for many other bottom bracket/spindle designs. Phil Wood is good I'm sure, but I've never resorted to that as a solution.

If you're talking about 10 speeds in the rear, I don't have a clue. Maybe the chain is narrower!

DARTHVADER

10 speed i was just mumbling about a bit, the bike is about to get a 10speed rear wheel which means i'll have to run a 10 speed chain. i wanted to use the vintage cranks on the front...

as far as the spindles. i'm actually talking about two different setups.
my track bike had the 68-p-120, with old 151bcd cranks.
the cranks were on a Miche BB for a while.
the next track frame i got had the old 68-P-120 spindle, which should be the proper track spindle.
the track cranks slid really far onto the tapers. especially the left side, i thought it was trashed. drive side arm was still manageable.
so i got two lone strada arms over a short period and both of those slid real far onto the spindle as well.

well, last night i got out the "68-SPc", i think it is a C-record spindle, SP stands for strada/pista i think. it's 111mm symetrical.
well this spindle works fine as far as chainline and even better is both of my 151bcd pista arms fit the taper of that spindle perfectly.

that has got me to thinking about my nice strada arms on that 68-SS spindle (which should be the right spindle)...and maybe i should just drop the coin on a phil BB and be done with it.

moleman76

The single P means "pista", i.e. track ...

kpug505

A similar spindle problem just came up on the C&V list.....
Check here: https://00eda5d.netsolhost.com/bottom.html

DARTHVADER

you mean the CR list?
that was me also.

kpug505

Oops.....ya CR list.

dbakl

I'm interpreting that to mean pista, 120 at the dropouts; a road or a flip-flop hub spaced to road width. Aren't true track bikes typically 110 in the rear?

DARTHVADER

really old ones are. also of the older keirin hubs and frames were spaced at 110mm.
most all the new track frames are 120mm.

dbakl

Yeah, that's all I know!

dannyg1 

I'm sure tha you can mount 10 speed rings to a vintage crank and get themto work. Just take a calipers to a modern crank, get the width between the rings measured, check the offset and grind the flats until they match (I'd use a flatfile). TA makes modern 10 spd rings in various BCD's, so you're covered there. You won't though, be able to use the vintage rings as the tooth pitch is way different these days as well.

Danny

cudak888 

Hmm - forgot about those new TA rings...

...me thinks of Sporty!

-Kurt

Charles Wahl

Campy spindle for a NR crank is neither ISO (smaller end on the square) nor JIS (larger), but in between. Phil Wood's website recommends their JIS BB for older (pre-'94, when they did go to ISO) Campy cranks.

cudak888 

Interesting, as the Shimano spindle I used seemed to match the Campagnolo taper quite well when compared to a spare, authentic spindle I had on hand. Same for a Sugino spindle that I used to replace the worn Campag example on my '70 Paramount - and I should note the Sugino spindle was a carbon copy of the Campag spindle, same thick-cup spacing, offset, and overall width.

Is this to say that there are technically three spindle tapers, ISO, JIS, and Campag (pre-94); respectively?

-Kurt

cyclotoine

I was recently confussed by the phil wood data as well, it seems to make some sense now. To complicate things further they also offer a low profile JIS which technically was only ever used for dura-ace but I suppose it may help for applications where the cranks are "bottoming out".. that is that the slide so far on the spindle becomes flush and does not allow them to be secured properly...

Charles Wahl

Actually, there are more. Ofmega and Zeus used smaller spindle ends than ISO, even. And I think that there's some issue with Stronglight cranks, too. Sutherland's has some discussion of this, in the chapter on Cranks (#2):