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Old 10-18-08, 07:35 AM   #1
javal
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Up-grade not restore

I ride my vintage road bikes in training and amateur races, mainly because of their well-made geometry and it suits my riding style. I used to be an anachronic rider who thought only original stuff will do. Since up-grading one of my bikes with not so old but stylish components I´ve come to realise that my riding went up a level or two. So, from now on I`m into to 1)vintage and 2)effective riding. Then I stumbled into another thread and someone had sent a picture of a vintage Batavus with some modern stuff (rims, pedals) and the bike came across as, eh...very good looking and potent ready to get into speed. So, my question to fellow vintage riders; anyone else enjoying the mix of old and new and it that case what with?

I liberated my 1975 Monark 318(a k a Crescent MCB) from the french components (Simplex, Stronglight and SunTour) and put on full Shimano 600 (from 1984) except for rear derailleur where a not so old Ultegra came in handy. New hubs and Chrina/Rigida rims makes it run effortless. For the sake of style I finished off with Bontrager handlebar tape.

On the other hand, I would never do this to my Crescent 319 from -79 with full Dura Ace original; it still works like new!
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Old 10-18-08, 01:56 PM   #2
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I don't race, and I don't train, but I just got back from a ride on my lowly AO-8 (upgraded) and must say enjoyed it immensely. I really wanted a Crescent in the mid-70's (not least of which because I thought it would get me closer to the model they used in their ads), but as I did with this AO-8 it would have continually been upgraded with new stuff as I could afford it. Shimano 600 from that era is nice stuff and I think you have done a good thing.

I found an early 80's Norco with full 600 Arabesque - that one is staying as is - but the AO-8 has received various pieces - mostly mid-range Suntour, Shimano from the late 70s/early 80s, and some Campy (just to have it). Ambrosio Rims, Conti tires (cheap!). Oh, and clipless pedals (can't ride without them now). The lowly AO-8 is down to a svelte 24.5lbs and rides smoothly and fast (to me!)
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Old 10-19-08, 02:27 AM   #3
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Up-grading

Sounds like you`re into some serious up-grading! My most imminent finding was how a very cool bike turned into a technical advanced dito with only small alterations; I bought a new Crescent road bike in 2007 and I expected a lot. It turned out to be my worst bike ever as geometry and lightness didn`t match my riding style. I sold it and started the work on my Monark. Now I get that "new feel" every time I ride!

(Well, I`m swedish and I never saw that model either...between you and me; she never rode it!).
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Old 10-19-08, 01:29 PM   #4
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I enjoy riding the old gear, but I have upgraded two of my steel frames to full Campagnolo 10sp (that is, 10 in the back with two up front). Many upper end 80's steel frames are perfect for these sorts up updates. 126mm rear spacing can usually fit a 130mm rear wheel without any modification. The brazeons where the downtube shifters were are easily retro-fitted with cable stops for STI or Ergo. As long as the cable routing is smooth and the rear derailleur hanger is straight I have no problem getting a 80's steel frame shifting a campy 10sp group as smoothly as any modern carbon or aluminum frame. And they ride better too.
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Old 10-19-08, 01:43 PM   #5
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That is exactly what I want to do is take an excellent older frame and upgrade the components... because I think it is the components that have progressed so much technologically that is... I mean high end steel is still high end steel no matter if it is 10-20-or 30 years old.
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Old 10-19-08, 02:41 PM   #6
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I concur that components have improved more than frames over the years, and it is now tough (and expensive) to find a brand-new comfortable steel frame with a slightly relaxed geometry. I am very much sold on modern brakes and tires and freehubs over screw-on freewheels, but I am definitely sticking with 32- or 36-spoke wheel design. Since I dislike indexed front shifters, I still lean towards linear-action shifters, such as barcons or downtube levers.

I have 12 gears on each of my four road bikes, and consider this barely adequate -- I would not mind having a few more ratios.
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Old 10-19-08, 02:50 PM   #7
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why don't you like the index shifters? That is what finally sold me on the road bikes was when they came out with the index shifting ang all the guess work was gone from finding the gear....
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Old 10-19-08, 02:59 PM   #8
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After your first hundred or two hundred miles on DT shifters you realize how nice it is to have the chain exactly where you want with no rub from any misalignment in your derailleur settings.
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Old 10-19-08, 03:06 PM   #9
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ok, so now I just took my bike out and now it is stuck in gear... I am green here so let me tell you what chain rings it are on... smallest in the rear and the front... I have campi veloce index shifters and they thumbs wont do anything... any suggestions? Or should I start a new thread?
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Old 10-20-08, 01:44 AM   #10
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the up-graders

Apart from the technical side of it all (where I think index gear, rims and hubs to be most important) dont forget how bloody stylish the old steel frame gets! I even trimmed my wires nicely tucked in under the bar tape and came up with a super-sonic (?) look! Its a ready enough statement and its aiming at those who really think that effective cycling is all about weight. Well its not, it is also about craftmanship and geometry.

The longest and biggest century in Sweden (the Vätternrundan, been going since 40 years) is to open a special class/group for vintage riders. Its about time the steel riders get some appropriate attention to what its all about; having a great ride!

/Monark 318 -75, Crescent 319 -79, Crescent 325 -65, Crescent 316 -84 (Crescent Starren 2002 winterbike).
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Old 10-20-08, 08:36 AM   #11
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This is the mindset I have towards my bike, since it had begun to languish when I spotted it, I had to do new wheels anyways because the rolling stock were bent. Modern wheels and tires are the first step, from there it will be a mix of retro style parts and newer stuff. Even before I got it that was my plan after I figured out a good old steel frame was what I wanted to begin my riding life on, the scenario was to find something old but really good and bring it back from the dead, and so far I'm accomplishing it slowly.
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Old 10-20-08, 11:07 AM   #12
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steel geometry

One must acknowledge the fact that frames didnt change much between 60`s and early 90`s and it certainly says something about the geometric survival; they proved to be good rides whether you`d race or went for touring and it must have been quite a job to figure out (for the bike industry) how to develop something to replace the everlasting formula. I compare the classic triangle frame with other longlasting geometry such as kayaks (and yes, I know I`m close to one track minded!). Still, steel frames doesnt stand on its own and thats where components really can make the difference. Foremost, a new pair of wheelsets can really do the trick. Its all about using the bike and get hold of the steel frame advantage.
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Old 10-20-08, 09:53 PM   #13
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So if one were to want to update their classic steel frame, what are the most important components to update? Which parts have had the biggest leaps in technology, and which would be the most beneficial to update? I know that the wheelset would probably the first to go, but would this require a new rear derailleur as wheel? Or could my current derailleurs be set up to work fine with Ergo/Sti?
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Old 10-20-08, 11:55 PM   #14
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derailluer

In order to fit my wanted rear derailluer I had to turn to my semi-pro bike mechanic; we agreed to build wheels and match the new freewheel/hub with derailleur. It was far too expensive and painstaking but massive enjoyable when riding. The unknown benefit of this operation turned out to be the feel of the rims (originally, I wanted to stay with my original Weinmanns).
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Old 10-21-08, 12:38 AM   #15
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Swif if you go to a new wheelset and make it modern it will be 130mm spacing, but your bike is 126mm so you will have to stretch your rear triangle or cold set it. Neither are a big deal but can take time (cold setting) or be a hassle (stretching every time you take the wheel off). Also you will be running a cassette with less spacing so will need a smaller chain, this means you also need to change the crank or you will drop your chain between the large and small ring, which would entail a new bottom bracket also. By the time all is said and done you won't worry how much FD's and RD's cost.

Honestly if you are serious about this it should be a one time deal where you find the parts you need in the correct threading and once you have everything take it into your LBS and have them redo it all at once.
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Old 10-21-08, 04:36 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javal View Post
...a very cool bike turned into a technical advanced dito with only small alterations; I bought a new Crescent road bike in 2007 and I expected a lot. It turned out to be my worst bike ever as geometry and lightness didn`t match my riding style. I sold it and started the work on my Monark. Now I get that "new feel" every time I ride!
+1. As there appears to be a paucity of pictures, let me illustrate:

1984 Miyata 610 that got 'technically advanced' with...
--Deore LX 36 hole hubs, Mavic A719 36 hole rims, double butted stainless spokes new
--Pasela 700c x 35mm folding tires new
--Kool Stop Salmon pads new
--Nitto Technomic stem new
--Nitto 46cm noodle bars new
--Performance 'cork' bar tape new
--Dia Compe brake levers with releases, v. 1983 old
--Dia Compe brake hoods, NOS
--Suntour Command Accushift Plus shifters v. 1989, NOS
--Shimano derailer cable casing new
--Shimano stainless steel derailer cables new
--Suntour down tube clamp on cable stop v.1985 old
--Suntour Mountech front derailer NOS v. 1984
--Sugino 48-38-28 chain rings new (48/38) old (28)
--MKS Sylvan touring pedals new
--Dia Compe brake cables/casing NOS v. 1985
--Brooks B67 saddle new
--Shimano BR-MC70 rear cantilevers old
--Suntour XC Comp rear derailler NOS
--Deore LX/Mavic A719 rear wheel 132mm O.L.D. new
--Shimano 8-spd half step/whole step 13/14/15/16/18/21/24/28 cassette, new, custom spaced
--SKS fenders new



And with due respect, the above was enabled in its entirety by a multiplicity of stress relieving bike flipping. Which makes me feel good. Nowhere near as good, however, as riding this Miyata.

Last edited by mrmw; 10-21-08 at 04:57 AM.
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Old 10-21-08, 04:36 AM   #17
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What about lacing modern rims to my Campy Record hubs? What part of the wheel has seen the greatest technological advancement? Is the majority of the weight loss going to be in the rims, or in the hub?
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Old 10-21-08, 05:05 AM   #18
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Swif if you go to a new wheelset and make it modern it will be 130mm spacing, but your bike is 126mm so you will have to stretch your rear triangle or cold set it.
From this link at http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html ...
Quote:
you can safely go up one size in spacing this way, just springing the frame apart. I can't give you an absolute guarantee that this won't cause damage, but the odds are very much in your favor.
Piece of cake on my '84 Miyata. Originally 126mm. Now with 132mm wheel. No issues mounting and dismounting the wheel.
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Old 10-21-08, 10:45 AM   #19
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Huh!

Baffled and impressed. Upgrade seems to an international language!
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Old 10-21-08, 10:56 AM   #20
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My '86 Gazelle Champion Mondial. Rather than go with a period correct restoration, I put a 10-speed Campy group on it. I've never raced it, but I do occasionally ride it on the River Ride, which is a race-training ride. The River Ride is flat, on crappy pavement, and usually features a wicked crosswind. With the 531c frame and 32-spoke, box section wheels, this bike is probably the perfect bike for that ride.

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Old 10-21-08, 11:30 AM   #21
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I wanted to get into road biking after having bought a new/used 1984 nishiki international touring bie for commuting with new wheels and 7speed shimano DT I bought a 1981 Nishiki comp II on ebay. I took it out for the first ride and realised that 54/44 and 13-24 would not do at all, and neither would the narrow handlebars, crap saddle and crap shifting. I immediately started to investigate (only after I had caught a bit of vintage fever over here). I bought a new take off 2006 centaur 10s group which went from a schwinn premis (never road it) to a 1992 marinoni special (already 130mm lugged steel). with cheepo ambrosio radar 32h wheels. Now I could get back to my vintage fever, over the next few years I bought and sold bikes feverishly lusting after a full super record bike. I have it now... a 1981 gazelle champion mondial, fully period correct with 180mm cranks and 65-44 cinelli bars everything just how I wanted it, I hardly ever ride it. And I just finished restoring a 1971 full period correct nuovo record bike, I won't ride it till next summer, my girlfriend has a mid 1980s GIOS professional, and I also have a 1981 Marinoni Pista that I would ride if our velodrome wasn't fenced off and there wasn't a war on between the west shore parks asso. and the GVVA. Back to what I do most of my recreational riding on. This summer I was lucky enough to score a 2000 Marin Treviso (Billato built... sweet) and have since made it my main ride.. all centaur... the ambrosio wheel, though I'll be looking to upgrade to something like fulcrums or hed ardiennes next spring and throw on an easton EC90SL fork (this is a columbus Nemo steel frame (.7-.4-.7 approx.)... I just installed a phil wood titanium magnum cartridge BB and finally have a good chainline with my 185mm TA carmina compact double crank set.. bike weighs in around 22lbs (heavy!) a new fork and wheels should get it close to 19lbs (lots of weight in those wheels and steel forks). So I hang out here, I have 4 classic period correct bikes, I have a 1975 fixed gear running upgraded vintage gear (campy side pulls, phill wood hubs, superbe pro pedals etc..) and my girlfriend rides a Guerciotti single speed. I love classis, but like you I know a new bike can really up my performance and if I want to ride with friends and the guys from the shop I have to be able to keep up, unfortunately record friction shifters and regina chains and freewheels are going to low me down. For performance I go with technology. I also recently got an alloy cross bike... I have realized the power of the DARK SIDE.
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Old 10-21-08, 12:13 PM   #22
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To me, classic steel frames and more modern components are pretty much the bee's knees. I'm with John E. on wheels, though - nothing less than 32 spokes for this Clydesdale, and 36 is much preferred.

I also strongly believe that you should ride what you like to ride. I love to stare at the restored-to-like-new beauties that folks show off here, especially the late 1960's to early 1980's stuff. If riding that gets you out the door, great. But if what floats your boat is the latest and greatest in all carbon fiber, all the time, inclduing the washers, then by all means, that is what you should ride. If it gets you riding, it's all good.

So what do I ride? Either:

(a) a 1967 Paramount frame, repainted and braze-ons added by Ed Litton, with an 8-speed Shimano-compatable drivetrain, with most of the parts having a distinct Rivendell-ish theme (e.g.,an older Ritchey 110/74 triple crankset, Nitto noodle bars and Nitto stem, with Shimano index-friction switchable barcons); or

(b) an early 1980's Ron Cooper with a Campy 10-speed drivetrain, including a Campy Racing T triple crankset.

Both are very fun bikes to ride, and both are capable of far greater performance than I could ever have mustered in my best days, and I am well past those. But I love them both and plan to keep riding them both. The steel frames feel great and are guaranteed to last under my considerable bulk.

IMHO, many - not all, but many - new components work better than their older counterparts. I, for one, will never sing the praises of toe clips and straps over clipless. Clipless is better because my feet feel far better after two hours in clipless than they ever did in toe clips - and I rode across the country in clips and straps. And yes, I knew how to set them up and how to tighten and loosen them properly.

I do like indexed shifting better than friction, but I could also live quite happily if friction was the only option. And I am a recent convert to believing that brifters are okay, although I still like my barcons, too. I grew up with downtube shifters and could readapt to them easily enough. They also make for a cleaner, less cluttered look. But there are times when having the ability to shift while still having both hands on the bars, either via barcons or brifters is a very real safety advantage and is always a conveneince advantage.

As mentioned above, I prefer old-fashioned wheels to the new, mininally-spoked variety. I simply do not trust 16 or 20 or 24 spokes on a back wheel, but then I am a very big boy.

I also still prefer classic bars and stems a la Nitto over anything carbon fibered. In fact, I still prefer almost anything metal over almost anything carbon fiber pretty much anywhere on a bike. The techie folks can regard me as Luddite and show me whatever techie printouts they want, and I admit that I will have not the slightest idea what any of it means, but "carbon fiber," no matter how sophisticated, is still a form of plastic, and I simply do not trust plastic exposed to ultraviolet radiation not to lose structural integrity over time. I thus do not want it in a mission-critical application on my bike, such as the bar, stem, frame or fork. If those things fail, I get hurt very badly, and I'm allergic to pain.

So buy, build and ride what you like, and don't afraid to mis the old and the new. Just puh-leez do not ever even think about hacksawing off braze-ons or derailleur hangers for a "fixie conversion." That thar is a hangin' offence.
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Old 10-21-08, 12:34 PM   #23
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The best part, in my opinion, of the classic bike is the ride quality of the frame, not the quality of shifting.

When I rescued my SOMEC from the ignominy of living out its days as a beater fixed-gear, I was originally going to put it back to its original 7-speed Super Record condition.

After riding my father's bike, which is 7-speed Super Record, and comparing it to my own 10-speed STI shifting, I decided on modern stuff.

Enter Campy Chorus 10-speed. Carbon Cranks, lightweight bars, SLR saddle etc etc.

At that, even with the steel fork, it weighed only 17.8lbs and it performs as good as, if not better, than any hyper-modern carbon bike or even any 2008 steel bike. (I prefer the ride of Columbus EL to my friend's Columbus Spirit-framed Pegoretti Duende.)

As nice as the old, classic bikes look, they can't perform like they're supposed to without good components to support them. The lighter wheels, the stiffer cranks, the stronger brakes, they all serve to highlight how well-engineered and made the frame actually is and it brings with it a whole new appreciation of the framebuilder and his product.
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Old 10-21-08, 01:09 PM   #24
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......And I am a recent convert to believing that brifters are okay....


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Old 10-22-08, 12:10 PM   #25
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You are an eeeeeevil man, BBM . . . . .
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