Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-27-09, 04:08 PM   #1
wrk101
DRF aka Thrifty Bill
Thread Starter
 
wrk101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The NC Mountains
Bikes: 86 Katakura Silk, 87 Prologue, 87 Cimarron, 14 frame school custom, 73 Paramount
Posts: 19,976
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Not Another Rust Thread - OK it is one...

Thought I would post a few pictures from my current oxalic acid rust campaign. I saved up about six bikes, so I will be treating parts for the next couple of weeks. The campaign starts with my kiddie pool, direct from the local Xmart store. Added almost 20 oz of Oxalic crystals from Sherwin Williams (they come in 12 oz tubs, so I used a little over 1 1/2 tubs). The first pic shows the pool in action. I have a homemade dam in the pool, as it is a little bigger than I need. I then have a few pictures of steel/chrome rims from a recent garage sale purchase, a 1971 Schwinn Racer. I think the transformation speaks for itself. One thing I really like about oxalic is that it does all the work for you. You just set it in the bath, leave it, pull it out later, neutralize with baking soda, rinse it off and wax it.

Be sure to read all of the safety warnings on oxalic, and be sure to protect your hands and eyes!

But no scrubbing, rubbing, no abrasives, no nothing, just time. This wheel sat in the bath for 2 days.









wrk101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 04:14 PM   #2
poutine
Ta-da!
 
poutine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Toronto, ON
Bikes:
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
How did the frame cope? Any effect on the paint?
poutine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 04:25 PM   #3
wrk101
DRF aka Thrifty Bill
Thread Starter
 
wrk101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The NC Mountains
Bikes: 86 Katakura Silk, 87 Prologue, 87 Cimarron, 14 frame school custom, 73 Paramount
Posts: 19,976
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
I have never had paint or decals affected in any way. It will attack aluminum, so you need to strip the bike down. You will notice I pulled the axle and bearings on the wheel. Don't want to mix acid with your bearings.

I have used oxalic on several bikes, this will be my largest single campaign (more efficient than doing piecemeal).
wrk101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 04:46 PM   #4
mkeller234
Rustbelt Rider
 
mkeller234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canton, OH
Bikes: 1990 Trek 1420 - 1978 Raleigh Professional - 1973 Schwinn Collegiate - 1974 Schwinn Suburban
Posts: 8,304
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
I soaked this frame in oxalic acid for 1.5 days, The paint and decals came out beautiful after a baking soda path, polish and wax.

__________________
|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| ||
|......GO.BROWNS........| ||'|";, ___.
|_..._..._______===|=||_|__|..., ] -
"(@)'(@)"""''"**|(@)(@)*****''(@)
mkeller234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 06:18 PM   #5
gerv 
In the right lane
 
gerv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Des Moines
Bikes: 1974 Huffy 3 speed
Posts: 9,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
What happens to your bath water when you are finished? I'm assuming you can't throw it down the sink.
gerv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 06:48 PM   #6
Oldpeddaller
Senior Member
 
Oldpeddaller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Maidstone, Kent, England
Bikes: 1970 Holdsworth Mistral, Vitus 979, Colnago Primavera, Corratec Hydracarbon, Massi MegaTeam, 1935 Claud Butler Super Velo, Carrera Virtuoso, Viner, 1953 Claud Butler Silver Jubilee, 1954 Holdsworth Typhoon, 1966 Claud Butler Olympic Road, 1982 Claud
Posts: 2,619
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
That wheel came out near perfect. Does the acid (adversely) affect the zinc finish on non-stainless spokes? How do you neutralise the oxalic solution inside frame tubes and especially stays ad fork legs? -Or do you plug up those little expansion holes with cocktail sticks?

I tried this out on a micro scale on a rusty steel seat binder clamp and bolt in a small plastic tub. It came out totally rust free with a clean, completely rust free but dull finish that polished up like chrome. I'm hoping to try bigger projects as soon as I can buy some Oxalic crystals in bulk. Does the solution corrode aluminium?

Would appreciate the benefit of oyhers experience to avoid costly and disappointing mistakes!
Oldpeddaller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 07:09 PM   #7
wrk101
DRF aka Thrifty Bill
Thread Starter
 
wrk101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The NC Mountains
Bikes: 86 Katakura Silk, 87 Prologue, 87 Cimarron, 14 frame school custom, 73 Paramount
Posts: 19,976
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
I don't plug any holes. I want the solution to go inside these tubes, to deal with any rust there as well. I make up a bucket/trash can of baking soda/water, and immerse the fork in that (first draining the acid out into the acid bath). For the frame, I pour baking soda solution down all the tubes, draining it into the same bucket. You are just neutralizing it, so it is real quick. Then rinse it, blow it out with air, and frame save it immediately.

The oxalic helped clean up the spokes as well, as they had some rust too.

Without the oxalic, I would be tossing these rims for sure. The fenders turned out even better, ditto the Schwinn cranks.

Last edited by wrk101; 02-27-09 at 07:11 PM. Reason: clarification
wrk101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 07:16 PM   #8
Oldpeddaller
Senior Member
 
Oldpeddaller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Maidstone, Kent, England
Bikes: 1970 Holdsworth Mistral, Vitus 979, Colnago Primavera, Corratec Hydracarbon, Massi MegaTeam, 1935 Claud Butler Super Velo, Carrera Virtuoso, Viner, 1953 Claud Butler Silver Jubilee, 1954 Holdsworth Typhoon, 1966 Claud Butler Olympic Road, 1982 Claud
Posts: 2,619
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post
I don't plug any holes. I want the solution to go inside these tubes, to deal with any rust there as well. I make up a bucket/trash can of baking soda/water, and immerse the fork in that (first draining the acid out into the acid bath). For the frame, I pour baking soda solution down all the tubes, draining it into the same bucket. You are just neutralizing it, so it is real quick. Then rinse it, blow it out with air, and frame save it immediately.

The oxalic helped clean up the spokes as well, as they had some rust too.

Without the oxalic, I would be tossing these rims for sure. The fenders turned out even better, ditto the Schwinn cranks.
Thanks Bill, that's really helped to clarify how to do it. Much obliged.
Oldpeddaller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 07:24 PM   #9
jonwvara 
Senior Member
 
jonwvara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Washington County, Vermont, USA
Bikes: 1966 Dawes Double Blue, 1976 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1975 Raleigh Sprite 27, 1980 Univega Viva Sport, 1971 Gitane Tour de France, 1984 Lotus Classique, 1976 Motobecane Grand Record
Posts: 2,411
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post
It will attack aluminum, so you need to strip the bike down. You will notice I pulled the axle and bearings on the wheel. Don't want to mix acid with your bearings.
After pulling the axle and the bearings, did you immerse the wheel hub and all, or did you just immerse the rim and rotate it periodically to treat the whole circumference? What would you do about an aluminum headbadge? If it's a nice one and original it's a shame to have to drill out the original rivets. Perhaps you could cover it with grease or liquid mask?
jv
jonwvara is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 07:31 PM   #10
wrk101
DRF aka Thrifty Bill
Thread Starter
 
wrk101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The NC Mountains
Bikes: 86 Katakura Silk, 87 Prologue, 87 Cimarron, 14 frame school custom, 73 Paramount
Posts: 19,976
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonwvara View Post
After pulling the axle and the bearings, did you immerse the wheel hub and all, or did you just immerse the rim and rotate it periodically to treat the whole circumference? What would you do about an aluminum headbadge? If it's a nice one and original it's a shame to have to drill out the original rivets. Perhaps you could cover it with grease or liquid mask?
jv
I immersed the whole wheel after pulling the axle and bearings of course. Note, this wheel has a steel hub.

On the headbadge, I leave them in place. I am not recommending it, as over time, the oxalic will eat the aluminum.

If you look at the pic of my kiddie pool, you will notice a small plastic container to the right of the pool. I use that for small parts, easier to keep track of them.

Last edited by wrk101; 02-27-09 at 08:15 PM. Reason: clarification
wrk101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 07:38 PM   #11
RobbieTunes 
Idiot Pro Tempo
 
RobbieTunes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NC
Bikes: at Pedal Room
Posts: 20,853
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 249 Post(s)
OK, I'm hooked. My stealth Velo Cheapo project is getting the Oxy treatment.

And now we know what happens to the moonshine that doesn't cook right in them thar hills.
__________________

Robbie ♪♫♪...☻

Use both sides of the towel.

1985 Raleigh Racing USA - Competition (honoring cehowardGS)
1988 Centurion Dave Scott Ironman Master
1989 Centurion Dave Scott Ironman Expert
1989 Centurion Carbon R

http://www.pedalroom.com/members/RobbieTunes
RobbieTunes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 09:53 PM   #12
Banzai
Jet Jockey
 
Banzai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN
Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9, Ritchey Breakaway Cross, Nashbar X-frame bike.
Posts: 4,371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Wow. Nicely done.
__________________
Good night...and good luck
Banzai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 10:39 PM   #13
gerv 
In the right lane
 
gerv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Des Moines
Bikes: 1974 Huffy 3 speed
Posts: 9,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerv View Post
What happens to your bath water when you are finished? I'm assuming you can't throw it down the sink.
This notice from a British source seems to say that even in heavy solutions, it should be biodegradable.
http://www.chem-distribution.com/MSDS/OXALIC%20ACID%20MSDS.pdf


So maybe you can throw it down the drain. Or use it to water your lawn.

Does anyone know any different?
gerv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 10:50 PM   #14
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Posts: 16,785
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 220 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerv View Post
What happens to your bath water when you are finished? I'm assuming you can't throw it down the sink.
Oxalic acid is biodegradable.
JohnDThompson is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-09, 12:36 AM   #15
sunstealth
Membre Québécois
 
sunstealth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: montreal, Quebec
Bikes: shwinn mountain bike,nakamura touring bike,and some others
Posts: 212
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
is oxalic acid effective in below freezing temperature ? will it freeze ? I have a frame and 6 wheels that could REALLY use that treatment! (plus 99.9% of the parts of an old italian iron!)
sunstealth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-09, 01:21 AM   #16
robatsu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kansai
Bikes:
Posts: 1,694
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
+1. I've become a big believer in oxalic acid for parts large and small. Watch the aluminum and zinc coated steel, though. Oxalic acid occurs naturally in the environment, even in some veggies you eat, I wouldn't worry a whole lot about pouring it out. As for paint/decals, just seems to clean them up. Use in a well-ventilated area.

Acids, like many chemical reactions, tend to work faster w/heat. Conversely, they work slower in cold. Just about anything will freeze given a low enough temperature, and this applies to oxalic acid solution. The exact freezing point will be determined by the strength of your solution.
robatsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-09, 04:22 AM   #17
gr23932
Si se Puede!!!....Ahuevo!
 
gr23932's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sepa la chingad....
Bikes:
Posts: 1,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerv View Post
What happens to your bath water when you are finished? I'm assuming you can't throw it down the sink.
Do you guys ever re-use the mixture?? Just wondering. Because of this thread, I'm going to have to keep a bike I was initially going to toss and try this out.
__________________
Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.
gr23932 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-09, 02:25 PM   #18
mkeller234
Rustbelt Rider
 
mkeller234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canton, OH
Bikes: 1990 Trek 1420 - 1978 Raleigh Professional - 1973 Schwinn Collegiate - 1974 Schwinn Suburban
Posts: 8,304
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
yeah, I have an old coffee can with some oxalic acid that has been around for a while.
__________________
|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| ||
|......GO.BROWNS........| ||'|";, ___.
|_..._..._______===|=||_|__|..., ] -
"(@)'(@)"""''"**|(@)(@)*****''(@)
mkeller234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-09, 08:09 PM   #19
operator
cab horn
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione
Posts: 28,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Cool - but how does that affect the steel? Does it make it weaker?
operator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-09, 11:29 AM   #20
cds
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
hello,

this is a great thread, im wondering how the baking soda solution is done? do you just mix the baking soda with water to make a thick solution, or do you go quite thin with it?


thank you
cds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-09, 09:11 PM   #21
DavidW56
Senior Member
 
DavidW56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Metro Detroit
Bikes:
Posts: 1,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I also was wondering exactly what proportion of baking soda to water is correct for neutralizing the oxalic acid solution. I had my gears, RD, chain and other miscellaneous parts sitting in a bucket of acid solution for over a week. It did not neutralize all the rust, and worse, I think there is a greasy residue over everything, probably lifted by the acid from the gears and spread all over everything.

Earlier this winter I did attempt to use the oxalic acid solution outdoors in my garage and it did begin to freeze at temps around 20 F or under. The solution turned to a gel. I brought it indoors before it froze over completely.
DavidW56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-09, 06:18 PM   #22
sbsplease
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: San Francisco
Bikes: PX-10 frame soon to be complete hopefully
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
HOLY shnikes I'm defintely going to use this for my px10 project
sbsplease is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-09, 10:36 PM   #23
Panthers007
Great State of Varmint
 
Panthers007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Dante's Third Ring
Bikes:
Posts: 7,479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
To neutralize an acid - including oxalic - the use of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) makes it simple. you see: It fizzes. When you sprinkle some in to the acid, it gives off carbon dioxide gas - causing it to 'fizz.' Like an Alka-Seltzer tablet. After you add some, stir it around. Add more and watch it fizz - stir. Ad more. Fizz. Stir.

When you get no more fizz, she is done. But be careful still - you now have a solution containing sodium oxalate - which is also very poisonous to people and pets. Pour down the drain with plenty of water to chase it. It will biodegrade harmlessly. Rinse everything several times.
Panthers007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-09, 04:01 PM   #24
wrk101
DRF aka Thrifty Bill
Thread Starter
 
wrk101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The NC Mountains
Bikes: 86 Katakura Silk, 87 Prologue, 87 Cimarron, 14 frame school custom, 73 Paramount
Posts: 19,976
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
One comment on disposal: the oxalic acid you buy is commonly sold as deck wash. If you wash your deck, where does the solution go?

As far as reusing the solution, I will be reusing it at least six times, doing six different bikes, misc parts, etc. In the past, I have kept a couple of gallons that I reused dozens of times treating small parts. I will probably keep a gallon or two of this solution as well. Its good for those miscellanous fasteners, or an occasional chrome fork. I have used a tall kitchen trash can to treat a fork, it is pretty much the perfect height.

On the baking soda, I just make a solution of it, buy baking soda by the pound at Walmart. Since almost all of the oxalic acid has been drained off the part prior to neutralization, its not like you are neutralizing the entire kiddie pool. I immerse small parts in a bucket of baking soda solution, I also pour it down frame tubes and over the bike frame in general. I then give the part a quick rinse, and wax chrome parts, and framesave the forks and frame.
wrk101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-09, 01:44 PM   #25
sbsplease
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: San Francisco
Bikes: PX-10 frame soon to be complete hopefully
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonwvara View Post
After pulling the axle and the bearings, did you immerse the wheel hub and all, or did you just immerse the rim and rotate it periodically to treat the whole circumference? What would you do about an aluminum headbadge? If it's a nice one and original it's a shame to have to drill out the original rivets. Perhaps you could cover it with grease or liquid mask?
jv
So if your vintage bike has a aluminum headbadge with rivets you wouldn't recommend using this acid solution right?
sbsplease is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:04 PM.