Paramount Mystery
06-02-09, 08:53 PM
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Paramount Mystery
This showed up on area CL this afternoon and I went out to look at it.
https://chattanooga.craigslist.org/bik/1201826855.html
It may have been repainted with a charcoal grey metalflake. There are few flaws in the paint and several rust bubbles of 1-2 mm on one seat stay.
Edited: NOT a repaint; original finish.
The frame appears straight, undamaged and VERY clean inside. The unblemished headbadge reads "Schwinn Paramount" and is attached with screws. There are present on the seat tube and forks only new "Columbus" decals with Italian script; no other decals at all.
Campy dropouts, Cinelli BB shell. BB shell has been faced and threads look fresh. It has not been built up. Serial number is a very small and neat "610 D", marked on BB shell. Fastback seat lug and all other lugs are in neat but otherwise unremarkable condition. Nice headset is screen-labeled in black with both "Stronglight" and "Paramount" on top of the locknut.
The seller is a believable young man in his mid-late 20's who says the frame was given to his father in this condition by a friend around 1989-90. It has sat in an attic since then. The young man wants to sell to generate money for a new CF bike. Several LBSs have looked at the frame without challenging the story and have advised him on asking price.
https://chattanooga.craigslist.org/bik/1201826855.html
It may have been repainted with a charcoal grey metalflake. There are few flaws in the paint and several rust bubbles of 1-2 mm on one seat stay.
Edited: NOT a repaint; original finish.
The frame appears straight, undamaged and VERY clean inside. The unblemished headbadge reads "Schwinn Paramount" and is attached with screws. There are present on the seat tube and forks only new "Columbus" decals with Italian script; no other decals at all.
Campy dropouts, Cinelli BB shell. BB shell has been faced and threads look fresh. It has not been built up. Serial number is a very small and neat "610 D", marked on BB shell. Fastback seat lug and all other lugs are in neat but otherwise unremarkable condition. Nice headset is screen-labeled in black with both "Stronglight" and "Paramount" on top of the locknut.
The seller is a believable young man in his mid-late 20's who says the frame was given to his father in this condition by a friend around 1989-90. It has sat in an attic since then. The young man wants to sell to generate money for a new CF bike. Several LBSs have looked at the frame without challenging the story and have advised him on asking price.
Last edited by afilado; 08-15-12 at 10:16 PM. Reason: clarification.
06-02-09, 08:58 PM
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Seller claims: "...I just discovered this racing frame was custom made in 1985 for my friend by an employee that worked at Schwinn. It has never been ridden. I should have called him before, but never thought about it."
-Kurt
-Kurt
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06-02-09, 09:13 PM
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From what I can make out from the picture, it does appear to be a Paramount from around 1984 or so. The 610 indicates a 61 cm frame. Campy dropouts and Cinelli bottom bracket check are consistent also.
Photos of lugs, crown fork, and seat tube cable guides would help. I'm unfamilair witht the Paramount locknut. Tange Japan would have been my expectation.
Price seems high and the story uncompelling. What makes this one different from any Paramount from that time frame?
Photos of lugs, crown fork, and seat tube cable guides would help. I'm unfamilair witht the Paramount locknut. Tange Japan would have been my expectation.
Price seems high and the story uncompelling. What makes this one different from any Paramount from that time frame?
06-02-09, 09:15 PM
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Yeah, Kurt, I was about to add the update myself.......here's part of what I received from the seller just a few minutes ago.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I called my friend right after you left (SOMETHING I
SHOULD HAVE DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE) and talked to him about the frame.
Here is the scoop.
He had a friend who worked at Schwinn in Wisconsin (he
thinks the factory was in Burlington). He custom made it for my friend in
1985 (possible 86, but he thinks it was 85) and gave it to him as a gift.
My friend never put it together; he just kept it until he gave it to my dad as
a gift. So the reason it looks like it had a paint job and there aren't
any decals on it is because it was custom made at the Wisconsin factory that
produced racing bikes. Is it possible that the employee who worked at
Schwinn just got an old frame and repainted it…? Yes, but as far as
my friend knows, it was custom made by his good friend and fellow church member
and came to him brand new."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He intends reposting at a new, higher price based on the above.
Does anything about this story make sense? I really don't think the seller is intentional in
any misrepresentation. At most, he's making speculative claims that are difficult if not impossible to
confirm.
Julian
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I called my friend right after you left (SOMETHING I
SHOULD HAVE DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE) and talked to him about the frame.
Here is the scoop.
He had a friend who worked at Schwinn in Wisconsin (he
thinks the factory was in Burlington). He custom made it for my friend in
1985 (possible 86, but he thinks it was 85) and gave it to him as a gift.
My friend never put it together; he just kept it until he gave it to my dad as
a gift. So the reason it looks like it had a paint job and there aren't
any decals on it is because it was custom made at the Wisconsin factory that
produced racing bikes. Is it possible that the employee who worked at
Schwinn just got an old frame and repainted it…? Yes, but as far as
my friend knows, it was custom made by his good friend and fellow church member
and came to him brand new."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He intends reposting at a new, higher price based on the above.
Does anything about this story make sense? I really don't think the seller is intentional in
any misrepresentation. At most, he's making speculative claims that are difficult if not impossible to
confirm.
Julian
06-02-09, 09:23 PM
#5
Disraeli Gears
$600 was the first asking price, and he's going to raise that? Maybe that makes sense in some other universe than the one I'm living.
06-02-09, 09:25 PM
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About the same story I got, but worded differently.
Charles, $600 is the new price - I was quoted $300 + $50 shipped until he "learned" of the "history" behind it - and used it as his excuse to bump the price. I don't think he would be transparent enough to try bumping it again lest he alienate the remainder of his buying public.
Gotta love the "Roadshow Mentality."
-Kurt
Charles, $600 is the new price - I was quoted $300 + $50 shipped until he "learned" of the "history" behind it - and used it as his excuse to bump the price. I don't think he would be transparent enough to try bumping it again lest he alienate the remainder of his buying public.
Gotta love the "Roadshow Mentality."
-Kurt
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Last edited by cudak888; 06-02-09 at 09:55 PM.
06-02-09, 09:40 PM
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Maybe I was wrong about "repaint".
The physical condition of the frame does give some credence to the strange story of non-use. It is finely preserved.
When you say you would have expected a Tange headset are you implying the frame is of Japanese manufacture?
Further pics are not possible thru me. I agree that the price is out of line based on the present story.
J
The physical condition of the frame does give some credence to the strange story of non-use. It is finely preserved.
When you say you would have expected a Tange headset are you implying the frame is of Japanese manufacture?
Further pics are not possible thru me. I agree that the price is out of line based on the present story.
J
From what I can make out from the picture, it does appear to be a Paramount from around 1984 or so. The 610 indicates a 61 cm frame. Campy dropouts and Cinelli bottom bracket check are consistent also.
Photos of lugs, crown fork, and seat tube cable guides would help. I'm unfamilair witht the Paramount locknut. Tange Japan would have been my expectation.
Price seems high and the story uncompelling. What makes this one different from any Paramount from that time frame?
Photos of lugs, crown fork, and seat tube cable guides would help. I'm unfamilair witht the Paramount locknut. Tange Japan would have been my expectation.
Price seems high and the story uncompelling. What makes this one different from any Paramount from that time frame?
Last edited by afilado; 04-19-12 at 08:41 AM.
06-02-09, 09:44 PM
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06-03-09, 03:50 AM
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Here's my two cents worth of nonsense:
From those low resolution pictures (it's hard to say), but it looks a lot like my '83 Paramount, which has a black metalic finish and the rainbow decals (headbadge decal). The shifter bosses, TT cable guides, lugs, fork crown, and it appears to have the FD and RD cable guides on the top of the BB shell (about '85 Paramounts began using an under the BB cable routing). Mine has Campagnolo dropouts. I believe about '85-'86 they switched to different dropouts. My serial number is stamped in the left rear dropout and uses the Chicago scheme, "E83**." Yogurt has a similar vintage Paramount but it has no trace of a serial number.
I have seen a few early '80s Paramounts with the '60s-'70s headbadge, which has led me to believe it was an option which could be ordered for a few years (until they used up the left over Chicago stock). Also, I have a few paint blisters on my top tube and seat stays, despite the bike having been always stored indoors and never ridden in poor weather.
So my guess (and I'd like to see higher resolution and more detailed pictures), is that it is most likely a Paramount built in Waterford about '81-'82. Is such a frameset worth $600? Depends. A new high quality steel frameset would cost as much, if not a lot more. If it was built in this time period, it is rare. From '80-'82 there were probably less then 1000 Paramounts made. Richard Schwinn told Yogurt that he and Marc Muller estimate about 1500 frames had the Tri-color rainbow decals, made between '83 and early '85, so it is safe to assume that even fewer Paramounts were made in this early period.
Hope this is helpful.
From those low resolution pictures (it's hard to say), but it looks a lot like my '83 Paramount, which has a black metalic finish and the rainbow decals (headbadge decal). The shifter bosses, TT cable guides, lugs, fork crown, and it appears to have the FD and RD cable guides on the top of the BB shell (about '85 Paramounts began using an under the BB cable routing). Mine has Campagnolo dropouts. I believe about '85-'86 they switched to different dropouts. My serial number is stamped in the left rear dropout and uses the Chicago scheme, "E83**." Yogurt has a similar vintage Paramount but it has no trace of a serial number.
I have seen a few early '80s Paramounts with the '60s-'70s headbadge, which has led me to believe it was an option which could be ordered for a few years (until they used up the left over Chicago stock). Also, I have a few paint blisters on my top tube and seat stays, despite the bike having been always stored indoors and never ridden in poor weather.
So my guess (and I'd like to see higher resolution and more detailed pictures), is that it is most likely a Paramount built in Waterford about '81-'82. Is such a frameset worth $600? Depends. A new high quality steel frameset would cost as much, if not a lot more. If it was built in this time period, it is rare. From '80-'82 there were probably less then 1000 Paramounts made. Richard Schwinn told Yogurt that he and Marc Muller estimate about 1500 frames had the Tri-color rainbow decals, made between '83 and early '85, so it is safe to assume that even fewer Paramounts were made in this early period.
Hope this is helpful.
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Enjoying the GA coast all year long!
Thanks for visiting my website: www.freewheelspa.com
06-03-09, 04:27 AM
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I have heard of another from 1984 with steel gray as the original color. Are you sure it was repainted?
The frameset is not Japanese made, but a common headset from that time was.
It's worth a minimum of a few hundred as nice, lugged, Columbus steel frameset. Being NOS (never built up) helps too. Being a Paramount definitely helps. The flaws in the paint take away. The story doesn't make a bit of difference to me.
Check the underneath of the bottom bracket shell for additional numbers below the Cinelli stamp. The 610 D would be above the same stamp.
The frameset is not Japanese made, but a common headset from that time was.
It's worth a minimum of a few hundred as nice, lugged, Columbus steel frameset. Being NOS (never built up) helps too. Being a Paramount definitely helps. The flaws in the paint take away. The story doesn't make a bit of difference to me.
Check the underneath of the bottom bracket shell for additional numbers below the Cinelli stamp. The 610 D would be above the same stamp.
06-03-09, 06:05 AM
#11
car dodger
"D" could indicate the waterford serial # convention of using letters for fork size, following the frame size. My '89 waterford paramount starts 55B or C....
__________________
1989 Schwinn Paramount OS
1980 Mclean/Silk Hope Sport Touring
1983 Bianchi pista
1976 Fuji Feather track
1979 raleigh track
"I've consulted my sources and I'm pretty sure your derailleur does not exist"
1989 Schwinn Paramount OS
1980 Mclean/Silk Hope Sport Touring
1983 Bianchi pista
1976 Fuji Feather track
1979 raleigh track
"I've consulted my sources and I'm pretty sure your derailleur does not exist"
06-03-09, 07:33 AM
#12
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More/bigger pics from the Schwinn.com ad:
https://www.schwinnbike.com/usa/eng/f...1&d=1243997100
https://www.schwinnbike.com/usa/eng/f...2&d=1243997127
https://www.schwinnbike.com/usa/eng/f...3&d=1243997155
Hard to tell, but there don't appear to be any other numbers on the BB shell.
This site says 100 Paramounts built in '81/'82 (the price was almost $3K for a complete bike, IIRC) and 500 in '83.
https://www.re-cycle.com/History/Schw...nA_Models.aspx
That site is full of errors on other model Schwinns, so take it with a grain of salt.
Bob
https://www.schwinnbike.com/usa/eng/f...1&d=1243997100
https://www.schwinnbike.com/usa/eng/f...2&d=1243997127
https://www.schwinnbike.com/usa/eng/f...3&d=1243997155
Hard to tell, but there don't appear to be any other numbers on the BB shell.
This site says 100 Paramounts built in '81/'82 (the price was almost $3K for a complete bike, IIRC) and 500 in '83.
https://www.re-cycle.com/History/Schw...nA_Models.aspx
That site is full of errors on other model Schwinns, so take it with a grain of salt.
Bob
06-03-09, 07:58 AM
#13
Senior Member
About the same story I got, but worded differently.
Charles, $600 is the new price - I was quoted $300 + $50 shipped until he "learned" of the "history" behind it - and used it as his excuse to bump the price. I don't think he would be transparent enough to try bumping it again lest he alienate the remainder of his buying public.
Gotta love the "Roadshow Mentality."
-Kurt
Charles, $600 is the new price - I was quoted $300 + $50 shipped until he "learned" of the "history" behind it - and used it as his excuse to bump the price. I don't think he would be transparent enough to try bumping it again lest he alienate the remainder of his buying public.
Gotta love the "Roadshow Mentality."
-Kurt
Maybe the BEST response I've ever seen ever. That's a great pic.
06-03-09, 08:01 AM
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I'm unclear as to why the additional information the seller added merits doubling the price. If anything that made me feel less confident about the origins.
Here is my turkey and swiss sandwich with mustard and extra mayo: $5.00
Oh...I forgot to mention said-sandwich has been in the sun for several hours: $10.00
weird.
Here is my turkey and swiss sandwich with mustard and extra mayo: $5.00
Oh...I forgot to mention said-sandwich has been in the sun for several hours: $10.00
weird.
06-03-09, 08:02 AM
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The problem I have with his sale is you can buy complete rideable Waterford Paramounts from that era for that price. His may be NOS but will need to be repainted anyway. Roger
06-03-09, 09:30 AM
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My comments about the repaint were hasty. I made that assumption based on the the complete absence of any evidence of decals and the quality/condition/shade of the paint job as it now shows. Apologies to the Forum and the seller.
Based on the additional information which arose after I looked at it, the frame and story make more sense to me. As odd and apparently unsupportable as it may sound I believe the seller is sincere in his account.
One may never know the true story of the frame but, aside from the paint "flaws", it is certainly a very nice one to my eye. I would hate to inadvertently contribute to any undeserved feelings toward it or the situation.
I looked for ID numbers elsewhere on the frame and BB shell but could not find any.
If anyone wants help from me in seriously pursuing the matter, let me know.
Based on the additional information which arose after I looked at it, the frame and story make more sense to me. As odd and apparently unsupportable as it may sound I believe the seller is sincere in his account.
One may never know the true story of the frame but, aside from the paint "flaws", it is certainly a very nice one to my eye. I would hate to inadvertently contribute to any undeserved feelings toward it or the situation.
I looked for ID numbers elsewhere on the frame and BB shell but could not find any.
If anyone wants help from me in seriously pursuing the matter, let me know.
I have heard of another from 1984 with steel gray as the original color. Are you sure it was repainted?
The frameset is not Japanese made, but a common headset from that time was.
It's worth a minimum of a few hundred as nice, lugged, Columbus steel frameset. Being NOS (never built up) helps too. Being a Paramount definitely helps. The flaws in the paint take away. The story doesn't make a bit of difference to me.
Check the underneath of the bottom bracket shell for additional numbers below the Cinelli stamp. The 610 D would be above the same stamp.
The frameset is not Japanese made, but a common headset from that time was.
It's worth a minimum of a few hundred as nice, lugged, Columbus steel frameset. Being NOS (never built up) helps too. Being a Paramount definitely helps. The flaws in the paint take away. The story doesn't make a bit of difference to me.
Check the underneath of the bottom bracket shell for additional numbers below the Cinelli stamp. The 610 D would be above the same stamp.
06-03-09, 12:16 PM
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Here it is on the Schwinn forum:
https://www.schwinnbike.com/usa/eng/f...ad.php?t=72467
I have a custom built Schwinn Paramount frame and fork for sale for $600 plus shipping. This frame was built by an employee who worked at the factory in Wisconsin (Burlington...I believe) that produced racing bikes. It was given as a gift to my former teacher. My teacher never did anything with it and gave it to my father as a gift in 1989 or 1990. It has been in our garage ever since. I just discovered it and am trying to get it in the hands of someone who appreciates custom made classics.
59.9 cm frame with fork, original Schwinn Paramount Columbus steel tubing, Cinelli lugs, Campy dropouts, 126 ml rear spacing, Serial number 610 D
Email kbecker@gccsda.com if interested!!
https://www.schwinnbike.com/usa/eng/f...ad.php?t=72467
I have a custom built Schwinn Paramount frame and fork for sale for $600 plus shipping. This frame was built by an employee who worked at the factory in Wisconsin (Burlington...I believe) that produced racing bikes. It was given as a gift to my former teacher. My teacher never did anything with it and gave it to my father as a gift in 1989 or 1990. It has been in our garage ever since. I just discovered it and am trying to get it in the hands of someone who appreciates custom made classics.
59.9 cm frame with fork, original Schwinn Paramount Columbus steel tubing, Cinelli lugs, Campy dropouts, 126 ml rear spacing, Serial number 610 D
Email kbecker@gccsda.com if interested!!
