Road Fan

A friend of mine is chattering on about how the Gen 1 (with the offset parallelogram) shifts a lot better than Gen 2, due to "dual pivots." The Gen 2 is the one that looks like a long-cage Nuovo Record.

Anybody know why the G1 shifts better than the G2?

Road Fan

pastorbobnlnh 

In my experience with one of both, I had the exact opposite experience. Gen 2 shifts OK and the Gen 1 would not shift at all.

I know this sounds extreme, but after struggling for several hours of tweaks, etc., in the bike stand, I pulled the Gen 1 Rally off the frame and installed a Sachs-Huret Eco DuoPar. I never could make the Gen 1 go through the gears without skipping, grinding, and even refusing to ride on certain cogs. It was an exercise in futility!

In less then 10 minutes I had the DuoPar shifting perfectly in the stand, and away I rode. Other then adjusting the slack out of a new cable, I've not made any adjustments to the DuoPar in over a year, and still shifts crisply (shifting significantly better then the Gen 2 Rally).

I hope this is helpful.

Road Fan

Yes, PBNH it's interesting and it's added background, but my question isn't really for me. I've been chatting on another forum with a person who is interested in a Gen 1, and has been told by a mech that it shifts better than a Gen 2 because of a "dual pivot" feature.

BTW, what freewheel were you using? I've found all friction shifting to be highly sensitive to the freewheel tooth design.

I've suggested selling this person one of my Eco/Duos instead, since it will minimize the need to overshift and feather back, at least that's why I love the Huret design.

So maybe my question changes to (since I'm really not asking, "what should I use?"),

Are the pivots (upper pivot and lower cage pivot) significantly different between these two Campy derailleurs?

pastorbobnlnh 

In both cases, I used a Suntour Ultra 6, 13-32. The 2nd Gen Rally is on the '66 Paramount, and the 1st Gen Rally was on the '72 Super Sport. The only real difference would have been the RD hanger. In the case of the Super Sport, I was using a Campagnolo supplied hanger.

'66 Paramount with the 2nd Gen Rally and the Suntour freewheel:



A not very good picture of the 1st Gen Rally mounted but prior to adding the freewheel and chain:



'72 Super Sport with Eco DuoPar mounted on the Campy RD hanger, with the Suntour Freewheel:

mkeller234

I can't believe how nice the paint on your bike looks, every single time these pictures pop up I just stare and stare. I like the sachs/huret anyway, the yellow on the derailleur matches your housing.

cudak888 

Bob, out of curiosity, is the Gen-1 Rally that you have bent? Just curious.

-Kurt

dbakl

I put Rally cages on my Nuovo Record and have had no trouble with shifting with a 14/28 and a triple crank. Yeah, its a little slow and fiddley, but works fine. The dual pivot one probably works better because it follows the freewheel better.

cyclotoine

I have had several of both but never tried to use them. Seems we have only one direct experience with both 1 and 2 in a side by side comparison thus far.

I would tell your buyer the same thing, in theory the gen. 1 should work better, The drop parallelogram should allow for more chain wrap and thus better shifting, there are many derailleurs like it that work great including the shimano crane GS. But damn look how much wrap the huret has! no wonder it shifts so well.

Road Fan

I thought (after reading Upgrading Your Bicycle by Frank Berto and some of his old Bicycling articles) that how well a rear mech shifted was based mainly on the free length of chain between the jockey pulley (the upper one on the cage) and the cog. The shorter the better, but ... Too short and the shift occurs before the jockey comes into alignment with the target cog (this is undershifting). Too long and the shift occurs after the jockey has passed alignment with the target cog (this is overshifting). Amount of wrap didn't enter into it in his study and testing.

The Duopar achieved the correct length for essentially any cog size from 13 to 36. The ideal length (Berto again) is between 1 and 2 inches. For this derailleur it varies from 1.7 inches to 2.0 inches. I think the Rallys were already too long in the tooth to be incorporated in the book, even though Frank did study them in the magazine articles.

BigPolishJimmy

I need some kinda drooly emoticon because I'm nearly drooling with envy at those photos.

cudak888 

Would it be too much for you if I were to mention that I found this at the local bike shop today?





-Kurt

Road Fan

Kurt, you're a mean man! Though I'm consoled noticing there are several bits missing!

Still, that is in excellent condition. I may have some spares of those missing bits.

cudak888 

I'm just glad that it was still at the shop - a full year after I had seen it at their old location. Plus, the price was knocked 50% from the previous quote I was given.

Try NOS, with some mild shop wear. I do have a lower end Huret here that just might have the parts, but I might take you up on that if I come up short.

-Kurt

Dr.Deltron

Hmmm...

I have & use both, but don't have any trouble with either.

The 1st Gen. is on my old, well used Clive, and the 2nd Gen. was installed on The Mutt and hasn't been ridden all that much. But so far, no problems with either.

I suspect PB's difficulties may have come from too long/short of a chain. Again, only speculation.

Or as 888 mentioned, is something bent?

(Pictures of mine are on Flickr, either under owhn or Dr.Deltron)

Noah Scape

I have both (or had both... got rid of the 2 gen version) and I think the 1st gen is a noticeably better shifting derailleur. I also agree with Road Fan that the freewheel is an important component in the shifting equation.

Kommisar89

It is my understanding after a thread on the CR list that there were two models with the dropped, horizontal parallelogram that resulted from breakage issues in the original 1st gen model so the one referred to above as the "2nd gen" is actually the 3rd generation. I can't honestly say I would recognize the difference between these 1st and 2nd gen Rallys other than that the later one have the black plastic CPSC protector on one of the limit screws so they would presumably be the 2nd generation. I have one of those and it shifts adequately with a 5-speed 14-34 SunTour freewheel. I believe that Frank Berto mentioned that Jan Heine performed a test with one using a 7-speed and narrow chain and it shifted quite well.

cyclotoine

That does make sense, my comments were made based on observations of how well derailleurs perform with performance decreasing with decreasing wrap, of course decreasing wrap is usually happening as the guide pulley moves further back and closer to the cog so the chain length thing makes sense, but it also appears (to me anyway) that more chain wrap would go hand in hand with having the proper length between the pulley and cog.

dbakl

Performance increases with decreasing wrap, as the pully is more ideally presented to the cog. More chain wrap provides the ability to handle a wider cog/chainwheel range. The "proper length" between the pully and cog will be quite variable depending on the combination of gears selected. I can't imagine an ideal that can also be constant.

pastorbobnlnh 

cudak888 and Dr.Deltron asked if my 1st Gen Rally (blurry picture near the top of this thread) was bent or if the chain was not sized correctly:

Well, I traded it away so I can't look now, but at the time I did look and could not determine that it was bent or tweaked, but you never know. I traded it to JohnDThompson who has never said how it worked for him (I was very honest about my experience in the various PMs we exchanged).

As far as the chain length, I used the method described by Sheldon, the Park Tool Book and several other places about wrapping the chain around the big chainring and the big cog (w/o the RD) and adding a link or two. The size of the chain worked with the Eco DuoPar.

Kurt, great find! Now if you only had some hills to climb in order to really see the full potential of the DuoPar. Interested in another trade? I just love tempting you young man!!!

Dr.Deltron

Funny, I've not heard that method.
I don't know which ring the chain of the blue bike is on, but to my eye the chain is too short.
YMMV.

cudak888 

Chain looks fine to me - the Nuovo is just sitting farther forward then typical because of the stop location on the adapter claw VS. a Campagnolo 1010B dropout.

-Kurt

JohnDThompson 

Alas, I haven't actually mounted it on a bike yet, but as far as I can tell it is not obviously bent.

cudak888 

I wonder how it sat on Sporty's bolt-on hanger.

-Kurt

cyclotoine

politely disagree, unless you are talking about the record derailleur specifically, then this is true. But I was talking about general experience regarding many derailleurs, and for a slant paralleogram performance tends to be better with more wrap.

For a vintage campagnolo derailleur yes, but I thought we were talking in general terms?

cudak888 

I'm not sure I agree with you on that, particularly with the Nuovo Record.

Not only does the lack of wrap work against it in terms of performance (shifting and longevity-wise), the pulley wheel on the NR is rarely located in an opportune location. Quite evident on a corncob freewheels (distance between cog and jockey wheel too far) and on large freewheels for mountainous areas (jockey wheel pivots up INTO the cog if the chain is not shortened in length).

-Kurt