Favorite early 70's tubing?? 531 or something original?
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Prowling from Tacoma to LA
Posts: 35
Bikes: 70's Falcon, need to know more about it!
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Favorite early 70's tubing?? 531 or something original?
I'm curious to know what people's thoughts are on early 70's tubing and what they think is the best or what they prefer to ride around on. It's pretty well-regarded, I think, that 531 DB was just about it, but were there any serious contenders? Anything you guys prefer? Best/favorite early to mid 70's tubing... go
#2
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,698 Times
in
2,518 Posts
I prefer Columbus. Particularly if I'm building the frame.
#3
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Prowling from Tacoma to LA
Posts: 35
Bikes: 70's Falcon, need to know more about it!
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I've heard Columbus before too. Is is just straight Columbus or are there varying levels of tubing? What about it do you prefer?
#4
Si se Puede!!!....Ahuevo!
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sepa la chingad....
Posts: 1,113
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
__________________
Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.
Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.
#5
feros ferio
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 21,798
Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1393 Post(s)
Liked 1,325 Times
in
837 Posts
For a given frame geometry and tubing wall thickness, I defy anyone to tell the difference between Reynolds 531 and similar vintage Columbus.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
Vitus was also making high quality tubing in the 70's.
Last edited by Picchio Special; 06-30-09 at 01:49 PM.
#7
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,698 Times
in
2,518 Posts
I don't think 531 was generally used in as thin a tube thickness as Columbus SL. I don't really remember being able to buy different thicknesses of 531 until 531SL came out in the late '70s.
#8
Rustbelt Rider
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canton, OH
Posts: 9,104
Bikes: 1990 Trek 1420 - 1978 Raleigh Professional - 1973 Schwinn Collegiate - 1974 Schwinn Suburban
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Liked 372 Times
in
177 Posts
Pure curiosity, but could you humor me as to why? Is the reason technical, sentimental or maybe geographical? Or do you just like the sticker better .
Just curious.
Just curious.
__________________
|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| ||
|......GO.BROWNS........| ||'|";, ___.
|_..._..._______===|=||_|__|..., ] -
"(@)'(@)"""''"**|(@)(@)*****''(@)
|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| ||
|......GO.BROWNS........| ||'|";, ___.
|_..._..._______===|=||_|__|..., ] -
"(@)'(@)"""''"**|(@)(@)*****''(@)
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
531DB was definitely available in different thicknesses. Maybe you just weren't in the loop. 531SL is, I believe, thinner than most/all SL. You could get 531 that was in the same ballpark as SL in the 70's (to say nothing of the availability of 753.)
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chattanooga
Posts: 1,154
Bikes: '93 Bridgestone RB-1, '91 Specialized Allez Epic, '85 Raleigh Team Pro, '78 Andre Bertin, early '90s F. Moser Leader AX , '85 Centurion Equipe, '98 Litespeed Tuscany, '89 Klein Quantum, '80 Nishiki Superbe, '83 Peckham, '84 Fuji Opus III
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
9 Posts
#12
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,698 Times
in
2,518 Posts
It doesn't really matter any more, but Columbus was much more consistent with their tubes. The tubes were always the same size. You could get a stack of 531, and one tube would be too big, next too small. Too big is a pain, but too small meant that parts could slide around on you. It was irritating. Columbus always fit into the lugs just right. I have a lot of prejudices that make no more sense than that, I will admit that freely.
I'm not sure I really agree with it, but in the '70s, Trek definitely ranked Columbus above Reynolds.
I have a set of the reissued SL for a new frame. It is definitely different than the '70s SL.
I know big customers could get whatever they wanted, but I bought tubing from Trek or from a couple of bike parts distributors. And the truth is, I don't remember what was available to me then. I think 753 is later than the OP was talking about, or we should mention Ishiwata. I don't think they were in the same ballpark as Columbus or Reynolds until they introduced Prestige, whenever that was.
Last edited by unterhausen; 06-30-09 at 10:19 PM.
#13
Rustbelt Rider
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canton, OH
Posts: 9,104
Bikes: 1990 Trek 1420 - 1978 Raleigh Professional - 1973 Schwinn Collegiate - 1974 Schwinn Suburban
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Liked 372 Times
in
177 Posts
Thanks unterhausen, that makes perfect sense.
__________________
|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| ||
|......GO.BROWNS........| ||'|";, ___.
|_..._..._______===|=||_|__|..., ] -
"(@)'(@)"""''"**|(@)(@)*****''(@)
|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| ||
|......GO.BROWNS........| ||'|";, ___.
|_..._..._______===|=||_|__|..., ] -
"(@)'(@)"""''"**|(@)(@)*****''(@)
#14
Stop reading my posts!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,584
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1443 Post(s)
Liked 1,062 Times
in
787 Posts
Tange made Prestige, not Ishiwata. But Tange was available in the early '70s, it just was not very sophisticated stuff...didn't take long before both big Japanese tubing makers (not mentioning Miyata) were making very highly regarded stuff, definitely by the late '70s. I have heard some builders swear by all the major brands as being "best" so, take your pick...Trek offered one model made from either Columbus SL, 531, or Ishiwata 022. The Columbus version sold for most money and Ishiwata the least, but....maybe John Thompson should finish this tale...
Here's a name: Falck (not my favorite, but not my most-hated either and it is "original")
Here's a name: Falck (not my favorite, but not my most-hated either and it is "original")
#16
Si se Puede!!!....Ahuevo!
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sepa la chingad....
Posts: 1,113
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
I had a Moser made out of Oria and currently another F. Moser Sprint made out of Falck and I couldn't tell the difference between them in the way the rode. Neither are/were light but they rode pretty well. The Moser made out of Oria tubing had all the "normal" engravings on all the lugs as opposed to the Sprint that has none due to it being a lesser model. I would assume that the tubing was aslo not the best due to being used to build the entry models.
__________________
Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.
Ese dicho que me han dicho que tú has dicho que yo he dicho, ese dicho no lo he dicho, porque si lo hubiera dicho, ese dicho estaría bien dicho por haberlo dicho yo.
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 16,878
Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times
in
506 Posts
Another thing about Columbus: the alloy was stronger. Columbus Cr-Mo Cyclex has a tensile strength of 1030 N/mm^2, where Reynolds Mn-Mo 531 alloy is 802 N/mm^2. One might think this is only relevant in engineering testing, but stronger alloy can mean a lighter frame. With the stronger alloy, you get the same material durability with thinner walls. The springy properties of the two steels are the same, so the thinner wall could give a flexier frame.
However, Columbus made almost all the SL tubes at least as thick as those of 531C, at least based on late '80s info. So Columbus SL frames should be a bit stiffer than 531C frames, slightly heavier, and stronger by about 20%.
My only Columbus bike is a Mondonico assumed to be made of SL, and it IS stiff.
However, Columbus made almost all the SL tubes at least as thick as those of 531C, at least based on late '80s info. So Columbus SL frames should be a bit stiffer than 531C frames, slightly heavier, and stronger by about 20%.
My only Columbus bike is a Mondonico assumed to be made of SL, and it IS stiff.
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
I know big customers could get whatever they wanted, but I bought tubing from Trek or from a couple of bike parts distributors. And the truth is, I don't remember what was available to me then. I think 753 is later than the OP was talking about, or we should mention Ishiwata. I don't think they were in the same ballpark as Columbus or Reynolds until they introduced Prestige, whenever that was.
Last edited by Picchio Special; 07-01-09 at 10:24 AM.
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lancaster County, PA
Posts: 5,045
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
#20
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,698 Times
in
2,518 Posts
thanks for setting me straight, should have mentioned I have no experience with Japanese tubing in the same class as Reynolds or Columbus. The 022 I've had my hands on is like gas pipe in comparison to those two.
#21
feros ferio
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 21,798
Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1393 Post(s)
Liked 1,325 Times
in
837 Posts
Yup, my 1971 Nishiki Competition was built with double-butted Ishiwata CrMo, which I cannot recommend to anyone, because it was heavy and had a leaden ride quality. In contrast, my 1988 mountain bike is built with Tange Prestige II, which seems to be very nice tubing. The Japanese came a long way in a short time.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
There were LOTS of different "high quality" bike tubes available in the 1970's, from France, Italy, and Japan. My favorite remains Reynolds 531 simply for the history involved. From around 1950 to 1980, the winning bike in the Tour de France was almost always a Reynolds 531 bike...and it was the tubing used on the Schwinn Paramount in the 1960's and 1970's...Reynolds 531 is to bikes what Willie Mays is to baseball...the "gold standard".
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
All of the "regulars" in the "Vintage" Forum would enjoy having a copy of Fred DeLong's "DeLong's Guide to Bicycles and Bicycling" from 1978. It can be found at Half Price Books and on E- Bay. It is the best overview of bike technology circa 1978.
Fred DeLong put together a chart of the tubing being used in 1977. It showed that Reynolds 531 was available in 11 different gauges, from silly thin to beefy tandem gauges. And, Columbus, Tange, Vitus, and Isawata all did what Reynolds did: they made ultra-thin, ultra-light gauges for special racing bikes, and beefier gauges for touring bikes and tandem bikes.
The concept of "best" in tubing is often muddied...some folks assume thinner and lighter is "better". However, the "best" tube for a given bike depends on the purpose of that bike, the size of the bike, and the size and weight of the rider. Isawata Extralight 015 Alpha tubing would be SCARY on a touring bike designed for a 200 pound rider and 100 pounds of gear and cargo.
Fred DeLong put together a chart of the tubing being used in 1977. It showed that Reynolds 531 was available in 11 different gauges, from silly thin to beefy tandem gauges. And, Columbus, Tange, Vitus, and Isawata all did what Reynolds did: they made ultra-thin, ultra-light gauges for special racing bikes, and beefier gauges for touring bikes and tandem bikes.
The concept of "best" in tubing is often muddied...some folks assume thinner and lighter is "better". However, the "best" tube for a given bike depends on the purpose of that bike, the size of the bike, and the size and weight of the rider. Isawata Extralight 015 Alpha tubing would be SCARY on a touring bike designed for a 200 pound rider and 100 pounds of gear and cargo.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
The book "The Custom Bicycle" by Kolin and De la Rosa (1979) has a lot of discussion of bike tubing. Frank Brilando discussed the use of Reynolds 531 in the Schwinn Paramount of the 1970's. Schwinn requested that Reynolds make a THICKER top tube than Reynolds normally supplied, as Schwinn felt that frame rigidity was more important than frame weight. Schwinn specified extra-heavy Reynolds chainstays and fork blades. On large frames, Schwinn used straight gauge 4130 cro-mo for the down tube and seat tube to obtain even more rigidity.
For custom bikes, Schwinn used Columbus and Isawata tubes, and used Isawata tubes for ultra-light bikes.
Schwinn designers thought that the emphasis on lighter and thinner tubing was a mistake, and that thicker and heavier tubes produced a more rigid bike. As a result, the Schwinn Paramount often weighed 2 or 3 pounds MORE than many top European bikes of similar quality...an interesting design choice.
For custom bikes, Schwinn used Columbus and Isawata tubes, and used Isawata tubes for ultra-light bikes.
Schwinn designers thought that the emphasis on lighter and thinner tubing was a mistake, and that thicker and heavier tubes produced a more rigid bike. As a result, the Schwinn Paramount often weighed 2 or 3 pounds MORE than many top European bikes of similar quality...an interesting design choice.
#25
Stop reading my posts!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,584
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1443 Post(s)
Liked 1,062 Times
in
787 Posts
My early Nishiki(s) were not even in the same school, let alone the same class.
and just one more nit: Ishiwata made even lighter gauge tubesets than 019, there was 017 and (never seen in person so maybe very rare or just rumor) 015, which must be like paper.
edit: I see Rusty has mentioned 015 above, so...must be true!
Last edited by unworthy1; 07-01-09 at 02:07 PM.