Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26
  1. #1
    Senior Member bibliobob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    '53/'54 Bianchi CDM, late '50s Vic Edwards faux Peugeot, '62 Frejus, '62/63 Cinelli SC, '62ish Altenburger Cinelli Mod B, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72ish rose Cinelli SC, '73-74 Colngao Super, '74 Masi GC, '78 faux Confente, '82 Medici Gran Turi
    Posts
    2,864
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Echelon/Cherubim? Mystery Japanese bike

    I just acquired a fantastic Japanese mystery bike. The seller said that friends of his in California owned DIN bicycle importers in the 70s and gave him the frameset in about 1975. He said that they were considering frames for resale and were going to sell them under the label "Echelon." I bought it for the components alone. However, the frame seems to me to be from the late 70s?

    A little CR list research indicates that DIN importers did indeed import bikes and sell them under the label, "Echelon." Supposedly, they bought them from Cherubim. Supposedly, Yoshi Konno was a builder at Cherubim in the late 70s?

    So, what do you think? I have no doubt that it was an "Echelon." But, anybody out there have any corroborating or contradictory evidence that this was built by Cherubim? Any clue what year? Any chance that it was built by Yoshi himself?

    Over the top bb cable guides, brazed-on top tube guides, clamp on DT shifters, braze-on bottle holders, nutted brakes; this frame is right on the cusp of 70s/80s?

    The seller was the original owner, and transitioned components over to the framset, so they aren't likely to be much help in dating it. But, I've listed them below anyway.


    Photos were taken quickly this morning on the way to work. Didn't even wipe off the cobwebs.





















    More photos in the link below.

    http://picasaweb.google.com/smith.el...eat=directlink

    56/55 cm frame (ctc). 69 mm bb width?

    Low flange Campy record hubs w/Fiamme red label tubular rims, straight skewers

    No date, 165 Record cranks (NR chainring).

    Phil Wood cartridge bb (per seller)

    NR front derailleur (pre-cpsc)

    NR rear derailleur (72)

    NR road pedals

    Dia Compe Gran Compe brakeset

    SR (Sakae Ringyo, not Super Record) fluted seatpost

    Cinelli Unicanitor plastic saddle

    Old logo Cinelli 1A stem and old logo Giro d'Italia bars


    Hope to take her for a spin tomorrow and find out if she fits (I usually ride 57/58)....

    Thanks for any light that you can shed!
    Last edited by bibliobob; 07-09-09 at 11:15 PM. Reason: imbedded more photos
    I grow old, I grow old. I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

  2. #2
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,243
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    1st, you've GOT to give us some better pics: clear close-ups of the details we like.(OOPs, I didn't see the link, so you've read my mind already)
    2nd, I'm half remembering hearsay, but I thought the connection between Yoshi Konno and Cherubim was through one of Yoshi's relations: a nephew(?) who went to work there after serving some apprentice time at 3Rensho...I'm sure it's a beautifully made frame, regardless. Sure looks like a nice seat cluster.

  3. #3
    N+1 redxj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Ann Arbor, MI
    My Bikes
    A few
    Posts
    1,323
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
    1st, you've GOT to give us some better pics: clear close-ups of the details we like.(OOPs, I didn't see the link, so you've read my mind already)
    2nd, I'm half remembering hearsay, but I thought the connection between Yoshi Konno and Cherubim was through one of Yoshi's relations: a nephew(?) who went to work there after serving some apprentice time at 3Rensho...I'm sure it's a beautifully made frame, regardless. Sure looks like a nice seat cluster.
    Close, according to CR website it is Yoshi's brother who started Cherubim. Cherubim was at this years NAHMBS and had some beautiful bikes like this track:


  4. #4
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,243
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Ah, with the help of Yellow Jersey's site, I now "remember": Cherubim is indeed the shop of Hitoshi Konno, Yoshi's older brother, and Yoshi did work there until 1974, and in 1975 opened his own "branch" of Cherubim and was building the Cyclone that became (in 1976) the 3Rensho bike and around then his branch operation changed names, too. Yoshi's son also worked for Cherubim (under his Uncle Hitoshi) but during *later years*, and the shop is still producing (Keirin frames, at least). If this frame in question was produced at one of the Cherubim shops before '76 there would be at best a 50% chance of it coming out of Yoshi's, but as to who actually built it...mystery...after '76 then undoubtedly Hitoshi's shop and one of his builders. (that's how I read it, anyway )

  5. #5
    Senior Member bibliobob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    '53/'54 Bianchi CDM, late '50s Vic Edwards faux Peugeot, '62 Frejus, '62/63 Cinelli SC, '62ish Altenburger Cinelli Mod B, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72ish rose Cinelli SC, '73-74 Colngao Super, '74 Masi GC, '78 faux Confente, '82 Medici Gran Turi
    Posts
    2,864
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
    Ah, with the help of Yellow Jersey's site, I now "remember": Cherubim is indeed the shop of Hitoshi Konno, Yoshi's older brother, and Yoshi did work there until 1974, and in 1975 opened his own "branch" of Cherubim and was building the Cyclone that became (in 1976) the 3Rensho bike and around then his branch operation changed names, too. Yoshi's son also worked for Cherubim (under his Uncle Hitoshi) but during *later years*, and the shop is still producing (Keirin frames, at least). If this frame in question was produced at one of the Cherubim shops before '76 there would be at best a 50% chance of it coming out of Yoshi's, but as to who actually built it...mystery...after '76 then undoubtedly Hitoshi's shop and one of his builders. (that's how I read it, anyway )

    That's great information! Exactly what I was hoping for.

    Now, does anyone have a guess on the year based on frame features?

    I found a dead link to a 70s Cherubim catalog, and can't find any photos of any 70s Cherubim bikes.
    I grow old, I grow old. I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

  6. #6
    Senior Member bibliobob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    '53/'54 Bianchi CDM, late '50s Vic Edwards faux Peugeot, '62 Frejus, '62/63 Cinelli SC, '62ish Altenburger Cinelli Mod B, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72ish rose Cinelli SC, '73-74 Colngao Super, '74 Masi GC, '78 faux Confente, '82 Medici Gran Turi
    Posts
    2,864
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I forgot to add that it has Shimano SF dropouts (front and rear), and no serial number. The owner seemed to think that it was a "demo" frameset that DIN received for consideration. Judging by a few nicks in the paint, it appears to be fully chromed underneath the paint.

    The fork crown looks just like the top photo on the CR page.

    Thanks again for any dating or frame detail info. that anyone can provide.
    I grow old, I grow old. I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Night Tiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    My Bikes
    1983 Cilo, 1980 Mercier, 1981 Viner
    Posts
    46
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Sadly, I'm no good with dating frame parts, but I'd bet the headlugs might point you in the right direction. I think I've seen those dropouts before, too, but I can't recall on what. They might have been on that Vista Silver Shadow I had, which I think was from about 1978.

    Every once in a while there is a date stamp or even grease pen marks on the steerer tube, so perhaps when you check out the headset bearings you might find something.

    Cheers!

  8. #8

  9. #9
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,243
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    wow that lugwork sure has the nice crisp look that Yoshi Konno was famous for...I wonder if it's just a family trait.
    I saw this bike on CL but it was snapped up in minutes (the really low price was just one reason, and the ad had just one crappy cell-phone pic), so you either got a fantastic deal or you bought it from the guy who did.

  10. #10
    In the Gear 3434 danec99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    345
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Pretty good deal IMO. My wife saw the frame and box of parts and laughed at the "junk" I buy. I was thinking of having it painted until I saw it up close, very nice looking and clean. The main ECHELON decal has gotten gritty, so I am leaving all of that alone. I am thinking of replacing the Suntour Sprint RD and SR crank, making it all Shimano 600. It has minor rust issues, but it feels real light, and looks fast!

  11. #11
    Senior Member bibliobob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    '53/'54 Bianchi CDM, late '50s Vic Edwards faux Peugeot, '62 Frejus, '62/63 Cinelli SC, '62ish Altenburger Cinelli Mod B, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72ish rose Cinelli SC, '73-74 Colngao Super, '74 Masi GC, '78 faux Confente, '82 Medici Gran Turi
    Posts
    2,864
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Nice to see another one out there. Yours definitely appears to be the same model as mine (sport touring), and it's good to know that it was called Odyssey. Thanks for sharing the info. and photos. Between the nice lugwork and the nicely cutout top tube guides, they really are fairly distinctive bikes. Let me know if you find out any more info., and I'll do the same.

    Good looking bike, and you're definitely correct to leave the decal and paint alone. Enjoy!
    I grow old, I grow old. I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

  12. #12
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Echelon Odyssey

    Here is an "Echelon Odyssey" I bought through craigslist here in Seattle last July:

    IMGP5787.jpgIMGP5801.jpgIMGP5786.jpgIMGP5782.jpgIMGP5806.jpgIMGP5792.jpg


    As you can see, it has "Ishiwata 022" labels and a sticker from "The Missing Link" bike co-op of Berkeley, California.

    It came with Shimano 600 components (including a triple crankset - useful, considering the steep hills around here) dated to 1984 - I changed the stem, handlebars, shift and brake levers to give a more upright riding posture, in spite of which it's the fastest and lightest bike I have ever owned!
    Last edited by hubbub; 12-06-09 at 07:44 PM.

  13. #13
    In the Gear 3434 danec99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    345
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thanks for the steel ID Hubbub. So with Ishiwata 022 it places these frames in the mid 80's? I always find the "odd man out", Bibliobob has Nuovo Record, yours has a full Shimano 600 and mine has Suntour Sprint
    I figured I would assemble it as I got it and ride it. Later, if I just can't leave well enough alone, I can pick up 600 F&R derailleurs to match the DT shifters and a 600 crank.
    Last edited by danec99; 12-04-09 at 02:53 PM.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    9,997
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Shimano SF dropouts have been available since the introduction of Dura-Ace in 1973 ans lasted well into the 1980s. They were used on many mid and high end models, so they are not much help. Knowing the seat post diameter may help in identifying the tubeset.

  15. #15
    Senior Member bibliobob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    '53/'54 Bianchi CDM, late '50s Vic Edwards faux Peugeot, '62 Frejus, '62/63 Cinelli SC, '62ish Altenburger Cinelli Mod B, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72ish rose Cinelli SC, '73-74 Colngao Super, '74 Masi GC, '78 faux Confente, '82 Medici Gran Turi
    Posts
    2,864
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
    Shimano SF dropouts have been available since the introduction of Dura-Ace in 1973 ans lasted well into the 1980s. They were used on many mid and high end models, so they are not much help. Knowing the seat post diameter may help in identifying the tubeset.
    Good point. The seat post that came with mine is 26.8 (haven't measured with calipers).

    Anyone else different?

    Great info. on the tubing, btw. Thanks!
    I grow old, I grow old. I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    9,997
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    26.8mm for a post could be any of the Tange CrMo tubesets from #1 down to #5 and including Infinity and 900, though the bicycle appears too old for the latter two tubesets, . None of the older Ishiwata tubesets would normally have used that post size. The closest would have been Ishiwata 024 which would typically use a 27.0 or 27.2mm post. Sometimes, if you remove the fork, you may find a manufacturer's logo and date code stamped on the steerer tube.

  17. #17
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    26.8 seat post here, too .
    Last edited by hubbub; 12-19-09 at 04:10 AM.

  18. #18
    Groupetto Dragon-Ass Chuckk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Lostin Austin, TX
    My Bikes
    http://mcaf.ee/hsm2z
    Posts
    132
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Checked out CL this morning and was fascinated by a foggy picture of a bike hanging from the ceiling from hooks. I think it was the under-tube water bottle bracket that caught my eye. "1970's bike - $1000 bike when new!" well maybe - but I was thinking there was no Dawes Echelon that cost that kind of money!

    Turned out to be a Echelon Odyssey from the original owner.
    Never heard of Echelon before - but I bought it just because it was such an exceptional looking frame and a hope that I might ID it someday, and I find it here!

    Neat "mid-range" componentry too: Cinelli bars/stem, Ideale Diagonale saddle, Universal 77 brakes, Specialized hubs (?), Module-E rims, Suntour BL derailleurs, Sugino GT crank & Rino shifters. 022 Ishiwata tubes

    Gave her a bath and took some photos:
    Last edited by Chuckk; 04-30-11 at 05:37 PM.
    Showing my Stuff @ http://mcaf.ee/hsm2z

  19. #19
    Senior Member bibliobob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    '53/'54 Bianchi CDM, late '50s Vic Edwards faux Peugeot, '62 Frejus, '62/63 Cinelli SC, '62ish Altenburger Cinelli Mod B, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72ish rose Cinelli SC, '73-74 Colngao Super, '74 Masi GC, '78 faux Confente, '82 Medici Gran Turi
    Posts
    2,864
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Beauty! I'd be all over that if it were my size. Thanks for sharing!
    I grow old, I grow old. I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

  20. #20
    Groupetto Dragon-Ass Chuckk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Lostin Austin, TX
    My Bikes
    http://mcaf.ee/hsm2z
    Posts
    132
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Echelon / Cherubim CONFIRMED!
    I finally contacted Cherubim with questions and photos of my Echelon. Got a quick and enthusiastic response from Cherubim:

    "Hi Chuck,
    I've looked at your bike and I'm absolutely sure that it was built by us.
    I'm not sure how many of these are built, but Cherubim's former chief builder Hitoshi Konno built the several models for Echelon for the couple of years.
    Your bike have luge sets and fork crown of our own, so there is no doubt about it.
    Keigo Hirota"

    I really appreciate a builder that will recognize an old bike.

    More photos of my Echelon Odyssey here:
    http://chuck.kichline.com/bikes/Echelon
    Last edited by Chuckk; 07-29-11 at 04:46 PM.
    Showing my Stuff @ http://mcaf.ee/hsm2z

  21. #21
    As found... devinfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    1,240
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Bibliobob, I am in love with your bike. Beautiful lugwork and beautiful paint! AND it's my size...
    My bike is cooler than me.

  22. #22
    Senior Member bibliobob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    '53/'54 Bianchi CDM, late '50s Vic Edwards faux Peugeot, '62 Frejus, '62/63 Cinelli SC, '62ish Altenburger Cinelli Mod B, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72ish rose Cinelli SC, '73-74 Colngao Super, '74 Masi GC, '78 faux Confente, '82 Medici Gran Turi
    Posts
    2,864
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Chuck, thanks much for solving the mystery once and for all!

    Devin, thanks much for the kind words. High praise, given your taste and collection. If I still had it, I'd be eager to work something out. As it is, I sold the frameset to a friend locally. It was beautiful and I'd have loved to keep it if it were my size. I have a very nice sticker of Serpico that I was going to put on the head tube!
    I grow old, I grow old. I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

  23. #23
    Senior Member bobbycorno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    2,545
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Oh, thanks a lot! My "grail" list just got longer. Those frames are abso-frigging-lutely GORGEOUS!!

    SP
    Bend, OR

  24. #24
    Senior Member bibliobob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    '53/'54 Bianchi CDM, late '50s Vic Edwards faux Peugeot, '62 Frejus, '62/63 Cinelli SC, '62ish Altenburger Cinelli Mod B, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72ish rose Cinelli SC, '73-74 Colngao Super, '74 Masi GC, '78 faux Confente, '82 Medici Gran Turi
    Posts
    2,864
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Hey Chuck,

    Any chance that they'd confirm WHEN they were built?
    I grow old, I grow old. I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

  25. #25
    As found... devinfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    1,240
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Darn. Oh well, I think I'll bring in pics of this bike to try to match the colour when I get my Raleigh Pro frame repainted, it's such a beautiful blue.
    My bike is cooler than me.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •