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  1. #1
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Cudak888's Top 5 List of Overrated C&V Machines:

    I have nothing better to do this week then mouth off

    My apologies if I've offended any fanatics.

    5. Peugeot PX-10
    The traditional PX-10 by itself, is a great bike - perhaps one of the best 531 bargains of the day, and responsible for putting many a rider on a lively machine with Nervex lugs. Yet, these things presently command prices right along with Italian machines with Columbus SL, despite having near-consistently sloppy lugwork and brass oozing out from joints, and paint jobs that rival that of a fixed gear hipster Drew armed with a paintbrush. They don't deserve it.

    4. 1958-1979 Schwinn Paramount
    The Paramounts, unlike the PX-10's, were generally well built, and never failed to win in the appearance department - rarely do you find one that isn't beautiful, even if looking worse for wear. Regardless, despite being a reasonably small-run frameset, Paramounts are unusually plentiful - more so then PX-10's - and command equally silly prices that better machines do not bring due to name appeal. Furthermore, the stiffer seattube used on these things give the Paramount's a dead feeling for most riders of lighter weight.

    3. Colnago Super Duper Master Pooper
    I can't put together an overrated list and leave an Italian marque out. Sloppy framework, chipping paint, and peeling chrome punctuate the majority of the desirable Colnagos, yet, people go nuts over them. I'd rather have a Basso that costs a third of the price (and rides the same), or a De Rosa that costs the same and is far better in quality.

    Someone (I forgot who) said it best: Ernesto was best at marketing Ernesto. Wiser words were never spoken - his framebuilders simply pushed out what was needed to fill the demand of that marketing.

    2. Trek 720/728
    Once again, a bike that brings considerable prices on eBay, though at least the 720/728 appears, at first, to be a well thought-out machine - mounts for front racks, and cantilever brakes on all but the first edition from 1982. Long 531 chainstays so one doesn't hit their heels on the rear racks. Sure, it sounds brilliant - on paper. These very chainstays - which appear to be a very clever idea - absolutely ruin the 720's. The flex on these 720's is of such a pronounced nature that one tires out quicker with an unloaded 720 running with 25c tires at 100 PSI then with a hardtail mountainbike running knobbies on pavement.

    For that matter, I've long suspected that many Treks had inefficient silver penetration on their brake bridge. Granted, I have little to go on - you might have seen my rant this morning about the blue frame that split at the bridge/seatstay much like my 720 - but I've got a hunch that this affects more frames then most people realize (and I'll be keeping my eye out for any other examples of this same damage).

    1. Raleigh International
    I just don't get this one, I really don't. Raleigh tried to copy the Schwinn Paramount as a touring bike, and magnificently failed in the quality department - and the International still doesn't have mounts for a front rack (Schwinn never figured that out either, though I know at least one all-chrome 54cm frame was custom ordered with front rack braze-ons and a considerable load of extra French-tourer type fittings).

    That said, I don't know how many Internationals I've seen with lower Nervex headlugs that no longer resemble Nervex lugs as a result of two pounds of brass forced into the joint because of improper heating of the lug during construction. While not characteristic of all of them, I've seen worse brazing on Internationals then I've seen on Peugeot PX-10's. Granted, Raleigh did some decent Internationals (while Peugeot had a nice middle ground of mediocrity), but the bad ones far exceed the term bad.

    Paint was nothing spectacular, some nicer then others, with pinstriping that looks like a 5-year-old Nottinham lad was employed to do the job, armed with a can of Testors and a cheap paintbrush. It looks even worse when that dull gold lining is slathered over a horribly-brazed lower headlug.

    Don't get me started on frame alignment either - I know of at least two that were checked in a framebuilder's jig, and found to have slightly warped headtubes from overheating and possibly due to being force-fit during construction (there is a term for this built-in tension, but I forget what it is).

    Of course, at the risk of repeating myself - naturally, the Internationals command obscene prices on eBay just as all the other machines here. Does it deserve it? Well, as with everything I've said here, it is subjective - but I wouldn't pay anything close to eBay prices for one, let alone Craigslist prices (and it isn't because I'm cheap either).

    -Kurt
    Last edited by cudak888; 08-18-09 at 05:41 PM.

  2. #2
    Rustbelt Rider mkeller234's Avatar
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    Thanks for the entertainment, I expect a full on royal rumble in here!

    I would nominate the generic term "english three speed" as a contender for a top 10 spot. I think they are great... but the prices are going insane on a lot of them.

    I have seen one of the good Raleigh Internationals in person. Here is my proof:
    |^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| ||
    |......GO.BROWNS........| ||'|";, ___.
    |_..._..._______===|=||_|__|..., ] -
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  3. #3
    Pug lover! Dogs and bikes Tigerprawn's Avatar
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    I enjoyed the read!
    Looking for;

    Rapha / Outlier - Size M or 30 Waist
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  4. #4
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkeller234 View Post
    I would nominate the generic term "english three speed" as a contender for a top 10 spot. I think they are great... but the prices are going insane on a lot of them.
    Indeed, and the lugwork on any of them from the post-TI era (roughly 1960-on) is horrific. On par with the Internationals at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by mkeller234 View Post
    I have seen one of the good Raleigh Internationals in person. Here is my proof:
    I remember seeing that one - and I also remember yelling at you like a madman that you should have snagged it - it was the best International (in terms of build quality) I've seen so far. Is it still available?

    -Kurt

  5. #5
    Pug lover! Dogs and bikes Tigerprawn's Avatar
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    Hmmm now how about an underrated version of this thread eh? I think that'd pose a little bit more of a challenge.
    Looking for;

    Rapha / Outlier - Size M or 30 Waist
    Campy Victory aero pedal mounting hardware

  6. #6
    Senior Member Drillium Dude's Avatar
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    Out of your top 5 I can only speak for Colnago: ride, perhaps? To this day, my Colnagos all posess a ride quality I prefer to anything else - including the one American-made, cutom-built bike I have. Since all my bikes are equipped with NR/SR from back in the day, the only difference between any of them are the frames. As for the paint/chrome/brazing issues many people bring up: I myself have just not seen it. I've owned a total of 7 different Colnagos (Supers and Mexicos). The 83 Mexico I currently have is original, the paint has held up fantastically, as has the chrome. The 73/74 Super currently in restoration had obviously been raced hard in it's lifetime, but once the paint was removed the attention to detail was obvious. Perhaps I've just been lucky and have never seen one of these badly-built examples?

    Is it possible once one person sees one bad one, the assumption is that the rest are the same; the myth is then perpetuated? Because if that's so, I hope this is the beginning of perpetuating a new myth! Colnagos deserve their reputation for excellence, as far as this member is concerned, because the examples I have owned, ridden and enjoyed have all been superb. I didn't become biased because they were *** frames, thats for sure!

    My 2 cents...

  7. #7
    Chrome Freak Rabid Koala's Avatar
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    Well, Kurt, I got rid of an International for........a Paramount! My second Paramount, with several more after that.

    I was at a bike swap last spring. There was a beaten and neglected PX-10 and a Mixte version of the UO-8 (sorry I'm not a Peugeotophile). I asked the guy how much for the PX-10, and with a straight face said $1,000 for both bikes! I just walked away shaking my head.
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  8. #8
    Cascadian Nationalist
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    Once they are old enough to be considered "vintage" we can probably add any of the higher end Grant era Bridgestones to the list. Perfectly nice bikes, but appreciably better than others of the same era? I don't really think so. I say that as the owner of two (an RB-T and an MB-4).

  9. #9
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Good points there, Drillium. It's too bad you're about as far as possible (excluding Alaska) from me, for I'd like to see those Colnagos of yours and feel the individual ride on those machines. That's one thing I intended to (and forgot) to mention above - they do have a good ride, all things considered.

    On another note, I just remembered - I should have shoved Kessels-produced Eddy Merckx frames in this list. Sure they are nice, but they don't ride unbelievably different then similar Italian machines (maybe a bit different in the fork - let the Belgians do it their way), and the frames are nothing special - no filing, no nothing - they could just as well be repainted Bridgestone RB-1's in terms of looks.

    -Kurt

  10. #10
    Senior Member Gary Fountain's Avatar
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    A worthy recipient for a Forum Bravery award.

    I have my secret 'hates' but am too 'chicken hearted' to put them in print.

    I do have a Colnago super dooper Master of the universe and love it. I am also aware of the shortcomings of the Colnago marque but....I just don't care. It rides beautifully. I do still agree with your comments though.

    Good luck Kurt,

    Gary.

  11. #11
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabid Koala View Post
    I asked the guy how much for the PX-10, and with a straight face said $1,000 for both bikes! I just walked away shaking my head.
    Well, that fellow was just a nut - particularly if that price was based on 50/50 for the two. I would, however, not be too surprised if I found some nut asking $900 for the PX and $100 for the UO-8 - not that either are worth it in that case either.

    -Kurt

  12. #12
    Rustbelt Rider mkeller234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
    I remember seeing that one - and I also remember yelling at you like a madman that you should have snagged it - it was the best International (in terms of build quality) I've seen so far. Is it still available?

    -Kurt
    Well, it's not technically for sale, but I get the impression it could be if I made a fair offer on it. I remember where the guy lives and I think about it every now and then.
    |^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| ||
    |......GO.BROWNS........| ||'|";, ___.
    |_..._..._______===|=||_|__|..., ] -
    "(@)'(@)"""''"**|(@)(@)*****''(@)

  13. #13
    26 tpi nut. sailorbenjamin's Avatar
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    I'm kind of hurt that none of my bikes made your hoity toity list!
    I have spoken.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
    [I have nothing better to do this week then mouth off
    5. Peugeot PX-10
    I agree, but hey, I've been beat by guys riding them. The one I had maintained my feelings for French bikes.
    4. 1958-1979 Schwinn Paramount
    I didn't love them at the time, but have grown to.
    3. Colnago Super Duper Master Pooper
    Never had one: they always looked sweet though.
    2. Trek 720/728
    Never had one or any interest, but if that's what you like...
    1. Raleigh International
    Here I'll take offense. I think the early ones, before the bike boom were pretty sweet bikes. Yeah, later, they got a little sloppy. And no, the International was not a copy of a Paramount, the International was built in the traditional English (particularly Carlton) style. If anything the Paramount was a copy of a Raleigh, OR a PX10. I've had a number of Internationals (and identical Carltons) and I'd take the ride over a Paramount. But my 72 has a ridiculously high bottom bracket for some reason!
    Last edited by dbakl; 08-18-09 at 06:03 PM.

  15. #15
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sailorbenjamin View Post
    I'm kind of hurt that none of my bikes made your hoity toity list!
    Some of us keep a low profile and fly below the radar with obscure marques.
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  16. #16
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Fountain View Post
    ...
    I do have a Colnago super dooper Master of the universe and love it. I am also aware of the shortcomings of the Colnago marque but....I just don't care. It rides beautifully. I do still agree with your comments though.

    Gary.
    Gary is right -- there is something special about a vintage steel Italian frame. My Bianchi is a blast to ride and arguably the fastest bike I have ever owned.
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
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  17. #17
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    I'm not saying they are not overrated but I'm not buying your opinions on Colnago. Pin a number on your jersey or move to a State with mountains before you start judging Ernesto.

  18. #18
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbakl View Post
    1. Raleigh International
    Here I'll take offense. I think the early ones, before the bike boom were pretty sweet bikes.
    I'm inclined to believe that - the one mkeller234 pointed out is a late '60s example. The examples I've had the displeasure to experience have been post-1973.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbakl View Post
    the International was not a copy of a Paramount, the International was built in the traditional English (particularly Carlton) style.
    Not a copy in terms of geometry, but in terms of appearance.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbakl View Post
    But my 72 has a ridiculously high bottom bracket for some reason!
    Pictures, pictures...

    -Kurt

  19. #19
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otis View Post
    I'm not saying they are not overrated but I'm not buying your opinions on Colnago. Pin a number on your jersey or move to a State with mountains before you start judging Ernesto.
    Fit and finish and ride quality are two different things. Why do you think I own 3 Paramounts and a Superior (baby Paramount), and yet kick them into this list? I like the ride.

    Granted, I'd probably switch over to the closest thing to a Colnago that I presently own if I wished to sprint up the mountains - a Basso.

    -Kurt

  20. #20
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otis View Post
    I'm not saying they are not overrated but I'm not buying your opinions on Colnago. Pin a number on your jersey or move to a State with mountains before you start judging Ernesto.
    One of my fondest memories from 1974 was tackling Tuna Canyon in the Malibu hills of Los Angeles with my boss at the bike shop. He had just plunked down several hundred dollars on a Colnago, and I told him I was going to climb Tuna for my seventh time on my trusty 1971 American Eagle [Nishiki], and asked if he would care to join me to break in his new toy. We got to the first switchback, and he declared "this is BS" and turned around and headed home. Sometimes it's not the bike ...
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
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    Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
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    Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069

  21. #21
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashen View Post
    Once they are old enough to be considered "vintage" we can probably add any of the higher end Grant era Bridgestones to the list. Perfectly nice bikes, but appreciably better than others of the same era? I don't really think so. I say that as the owner of two (an RB-T and an MB-4).
    I was going to add the same item to the list. Not C&V in the same way that the other five are, but I can't believe the prices these go for.
    In the past month, there was an RB-1 on the local CL for $800. Just recently, an RB-2 showed up with someone looking for $600.
    Those prices might be somewhat inflated or wishful, but neither of them has been relisted with a lower price. Seems that they either sold or the sellers subconsciously never wanted the bikes to sell in the first place.
    1988 Miele Azsora

  22. #22
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
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    PX10...obviously I have an opinion.

    You need to step back in time to the mid 70's to understand why its so popular. The bike boom peaked in the mid 70's which in turn lead to a great interest in cycling amongst the American public. During the 60'd to late 70's Peugeot was doing extremely well in international cycling. Everyone wants to 'be like Mike' which in turn lead to alot of cyclist wanting the PX10 which was riden by some of the worlds best yet was a very affordable bike. The PX10 allowed cyclists to live their dreams.
    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  23. #23
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtgotsjets View Post
    I was going to add the same item to the list.
    I was considering it myself, though my experience only goes up to the RB-3. As for the RB-3, it looks pretty much on par with any mid-range Miyata or one of the Raleigh USA's in terms of build quality, and the ride was quite similar.

    -Kurt

  24. #24
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
    which in turn lead to alot of cyclist wanting the PX10 which was riden by some of the worlds best yet was a very affordable bike. The PX10 allowed cyclists to live their dreams.
    One of the reasons I've grown to love the idea of the PX-10, even though I don't care for the finish. I've been silently looking for one off and on that isn't too sloppy, and has a full Nervex Pro lugset on it.

    -Kurt

  25. #25
    Upright bars SirMike1983's Avatar
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    I would go with the the Schwinn Black Phantom as #1. These command prices up into the thousands of dollars for mint examples. In reality they don't have anything that other balloon tire bicycles don't also have. The quality is great generally, but you're still running the same quality moving parts as any other Schwinn heavy really, with the same production techniques and roughly the same quality paint finish. You just end up paying for the name these days. It was top of the line when it was made, but the prices due to the collections out there have sky rocketed over the years. As much as I like old Schwinns, the prices on the Phantoms just aren't justified in most cases now, well besides the fact that people own several and let them sit in the home just to look at. While they should be a little higher in price than the lower models in the line, even 60 years later, these seem to be in a price universe unto themselves (maybe the Aerocycle has joined them).
    English Roadsters, American Roadsters, and Balloon Tire Bicycles
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