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  1. #1
    Senior Member
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    Not quite cricket ?

    Reffering to a post intitled "rendered ebay bike" or something to that effect, post to which I could have replied directly but won't because it wouldn't get as much attention, and the matter of "outing potential frauds" is pretty serious....

    This is a bit of a quandry. There are scam artists (and very misguided sellers) on ebay, but openly casting doubt on a listing without being 100% that it is a fraud can be extremely detrimental and disturbing to the seller. I've had it happen to me on quite a few occasions on another bike "forum", possibly here when I wasn't around to see.

    A case springs to mind: had a listing for three totally pristine NOS/NIP or whatever headsets from the 40's or thereabouts, well described, well photographed with all components in full view. Some hours before the end of sale, a "person" (exercizing considerable restraint here) posted that "everybody should be aware that these headsets are being sold without ball bearings !!!". The things went unsold, whereas a few months later somebody sold an identical unit no trouble at all on ebay. The "well meaning" expert or person or tracker down of ebay conmen basically was calling me a cheat for trying to sell headsets without balls. What the poor kid didn't know was that at the time those things were on sale in the bike shops back in the 40's, they were sold without bearings. You had to buy your own balls, so to speak, and all bike shop owners had a massive stock of balls of diferent sizes. Anyway, small deal, they wouldn't have gone for much and I was only listing something out of boredom (some kicks to be had from the "casino" sensations from watching the last minute snipes increase the price). But it did make me a bit anoyed, and upset.

    Is there some way where "private" or off forum queries could be done before messing up a decent guy's day ? Such as a rule whereby the "I think, there may be reason to suspect, this stinks" etc stuff isn't really considered OK on CV unless backed by some pretty reliable research into seller and item ? Probably not, but the subject might warrant some discussion.

  2. #2
    Forum Admin lotek's Avatar
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    I've seen that happen more than once, and also seen where poor information
    or down right fraudulent sales have been pointed out.
    But I agree we need to be more mindful of what we are posting, as I said in the rendered bike
    thread, the sellers reputation is spotless, he's a very well known person and the colors of the bike
    and background do render the photo's somewhat surreal.

    I don't think it's wrong/harmful to discuss an auction, or even question parts of it,
    but to warn people that the person might be a fraud/cheat is a totally different story.

    The problem with the private, off forum is how do we control who has access? it only ends
    up being another forum devoted to bad auctions.

    Marty
    Sono piů lento di quel che sembra.
    Odio la gente, tutti.

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  3. #3
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotek View Post
    I've seen that happen more than once, and also seen where poor information
    or down right fraudulent sales have been pointed out.
    But I agree we need to be more mindful of what we are posting, as I said in the rendered bike
    thread, the sellers reputation is spotless, he's a very well known person and the colors of the bike
    and background do render the photo's somewhat surreal.

    I don't think it's wrong/harmful to discuss an auction, or even question parts of it,
    but to warn people that the person might be a fraud/cheat is a totally different story.

    The problem with the private, off forum is how do we control who has access? it only ends
    up being another forum devoted to bad auctions.

    Marty
    Very hard to implement as a seperate forum indeed, was thinking more of a sort of circle of "knowledgeable" guys (that excludes me) who one would send messages to privately asking for opinion before screaming fraud. Somebody like Ted Ernst for track bikes would be pretty reliable, then you could have guys who are reputable dealers or shop owners. Still, you are right, impossible to implement. But maybe people could be made aware that it's not quite right to comment on an auction in a very negative manner unless they are absolutely sure of themselves. Could just put a question mildly formulated like "There is something in this auction I don't understand, can anybody help me ?"

  4. #4
    Junior WHAT?!?! molarface's Avatar
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    Goodness, there are people blowing up the Middle East, threatening to blow up the Far East, the West is having severe economic problems, Polar Bears running out of Polar, and we're discussing this stuff? Let's stick with "ID this frame" or "what's this stain on my B17?" threads.

    Don

  5. #5
    Pug lover! Dogs and bikes Tigerprawn's Avatar
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    I like the fact that the auction was discussed and people were able to validate that the seller was well known and legit. Sure at the beginning there are doubts, but thankfully we have experienced guys who can shed some light and lay the doubt down to rest.

    I for one rather have open discussions than having a cyclist being duped by a scam. I do agree though that threads should be mindful when still unclear if the seller is legit or not. Hell, I did the very same thing and made a mistake by calling out a CL ad that seemed to me that it could possibly be a stolen bike. I don't think I was harsh, but I did imply it could potentially be stolen. Turns out I was 100% wrong, it was a fellow BF member's post, and I actually ended up buying the bike. So I won't be making that mistake again.
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  6. #6
    Disraeli Gears Charles Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman_3000 View Post
    A case springs to mind: had a listing for three totally pristine NOS/NIP or whatever headsets from the 40's or thereabouts, well described, well photographed with all components in full view. Some hours before the end of sale, a "person" (exercizing considerable restraint here) posted that "everybody should be aware that these headsets are being sold without ball bearings !!!".
    A. What, exactly, is your beef? Sounds like the "person" was being factual. Did the poster state that your auction was fraudulent?

    B. The number of people who read these pages or the flatus emanating from CR is extremely small compared to the number of people who buy vintage bike parts on eBay (assuming that's where your auction was). So, the chances that this "person" ruined your chances to make a killing are very small. Who's got 1940s French bikes that they need headsets for? Not very many people.

  7. #7
    Bottecchia fan
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    I understand where your're coming from but at the same time I'd prefer to keep communication on this forum as open as possible. The main reason I don't frequent that other "forum" is that it seems to have a high percentage of people who easily get their feelings hurt. I agree though, one should endeavor to be diplomatic in these situations. If you are going to insinuate fraud you better be damned sure and I can't think of too manu instances where anyone could actually be that sure.
    1959 Bottecchia Professional (frame), 1966 Bottecchia Professional, 1971 Bottecchia Professional (frame),
    1973 Bottecchia Gran Turismo, 1974 Bottecchia Special, 1977 Bottecchia Special (frame),
    1974 Peugeot UO-8, 1988 Panasonic PT-3500, 2002 Bianchi Veloce, 2004 Bianchi Pista

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerprawn View Post

    Hell, I did the very same thing and made a mistake by calling out a CL ad that seemed to me that it could possibly be a stolen bike. I don't think I was harsh, but I did imply it could potentially be stolen. Turns out I was 100% wrong, it was a fellow BF member's post, and I actually ended up buying the bike. So I won't be making that mistake again.
    Sure, that's one way to keep someone else from getting to it before you.

  9. #9
    Piney the Elder -holiday76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Wahl View Post
    B. The number of people who read these pages or the flatus emanating from CR is extremely small compared to the number of people who buy vintage bike parts on eBay (assuming that's where your auction was). So, the chances that this "person" ruined your chances to make a killing are very small. Who's got 1940s French bikes that they need headsets for? Not very many people.
    +1 plus, one would assume someone making such a purchase knows what they're getting into and may have already know the fact about the missing balls.

    but anyway what's the alternative? Telling people they can't talk about certain things on internet forums or trying to force people to research first before they type? Good luck with either of those.
    Mmm, bikes.

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