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Old 08-20-09, 02:39 PM   #1
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Cudak888's Top 5 List of Underrated C&V Machines:

(EDIT: Forgot to mention - I mean C&V VLW's)

Figured I'd give the underrated machines a go:

5. Marinoni anything (EDIT: Debatable):
I'll be perfectly honest, I've never had any hands-on experience with one. I'm placing it here purely after reading what I've heard about them - namely that every single person who has owned one says they ride particularly well, and that all of them seem to show excellent workmanship. Furthermore, they seem to be, on the average, reasonably affordable (definitely so in comparison to most Italian machines).

4. Japanese-made "Series" PDG Paramounts:
Oversized, lugged cromoly steel frames with completely functional Shimano drivetrain systems - some higher end then others. Depending on the model, one can conceivably pick one of these up for under $300. What isn't to like about that? Furthermore, if you think all Paramounts ride similar to the second-gen models (i.e., overbuilt and often "dead"), you might think differently after riding one.

3. Miyata 710:
How can you argue with a bike that comes stock with a triple-butted cromoly frame and Suntour Cyclone, and is often found on Craigslist under $250? You can't. Sure, it has that unmistakable Japanese-build look to it, no lug thinning, thick fork crown shoreline, boring dropout-to-stay treatment - but so does a high-end Team Fuji for twice the price.

2. Peugeot UO-8:
I debated on whether to consider this underrated - many of the folks here on the forum have caught onto the fact that Peugeot's high-tensile bargain 10 speed is a solid, inexpensive little frame. Furthermore, it isn't as heavy as one might think it is when upgraded with the right components (a simple Suntour FD, RD and shifters can solve the main weakness of the '70s-era UO's - the Simplex Prestiege groupset). Did I mention that they're plentiful? They might as well be the French Schwinn Continental - without the built-in boat anchor.

1. Raleigh Super Course (pre-1983):
I probably don't even need to introduce the Super Course. It was probably Raleigh's best-selling model with 531, and we all know what it is. It doesn't matter that the earlier models have stamped dropouts, and that some of the later '70s models were sloppy (like all late '70s Nottingham Raleigh products). They ride well, and you can do virtually anything with them (ask nlerner, king of Raleigh SC's). Best yet, it isn't entirely impossible to find one cheap - regardless of whether it is a first-gen SC, SC MkII, or the later third-gens. They're plentiful, reliable, versatile, and inexpensive.

(There are many others that I'm no doubt omitting. I can't think of them right now, and I'd probably be here for hours trying to figure out which belong in this list - it would end up being a top-10).

-Kurt
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Old 08-20-09, 02:56 PM   #2
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Oh, man... can't believe you left off the Sears, 531 Ted Williams Free Spirit...
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Old 08-20-09, 03:02 PM   #3
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ok...
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Old 08-20-09, 03:11 PM   #4
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I guess my bias towards the heavies and English-style bicycles shows in my thoughts. But I'll throw a couple into the mix:

Dayton/Huffman balloon tire bicycles built from the 1930-1950s (except for the flex death bikes). Collectors have caught on to some of these, but riders today think "Huffy=crap" often. In fact Dayton/Huffman bicycles of the earlier vintages were well-made and quite solid. They also had nice styling. The "long tail" Dayton La France is supremely beautiful and a rock solid machine.

Columbia balloon tire bicycles, especially the ones made from 1946-1951. These bicycles used pre-war styling and generally well-made components (some of the chrome isn't the best, but alright) but you can get them at a fraction of what a prewar Schwinn will cost. They generally ride nicely. If you like prewar styling and finish, but don't have the money, look for a 1940s era Columbia.

Columbia 3 speed roadsters, especially the early ones from the 1950s-early 1960s. These were meant to compete with the appearing Raleighs in the US. People often degrade them, but those that do really don't know about them. These were solid, quality 3 speed utility cycles that are just as reliable as Raleighs, and in many cases actually easier to work on at home. They often don't sell for much money compared to contemporary Raleighs, though they still use the reliable SA AW hub system, and regular caliper brakes.

Schwinn 3 speed cycles. These have come up in value lately. But when I was doing my Raleigh buying a few years ago, these came up often and sold for less than Raleighs often would sell for of the same vintage. Like the Columbias, some people degrade the 1 piece crank, but once you get a straight one and a good set of bearings + pedals, they're nice because they're easier to work on. I also like the frame finishing on many of these Schwinns-- very smooth and attractive. Many have relaxed frame angles, if you like a more casual ride. I somewhat regret not having gotten one when they were cheaper. I'm still on the look out though.

I'll also include a full category: late 1950s/early 1960s American middle weight bicycles, especially those from Schwinn, Columbia and JC Higgins. People often overlook these- too small to be ballooners, too big to be utility bicycles, too slow to be road machines. Yet they actually offer a nice, moderate ride with the look and some of the feel of a balloon tire at a fraction of the cost, and often with a nice 2 speed Bendix hub or even a 3 speed SA gear. They make nice cruisers for people who want something a little lighter and faster than a full heavy.
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Old 08-20-09, 03:24 PM   #5
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I agree about the "UO8" very underated,what a SCHWEEEET little bike they are !
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Old 08-20-09, 03:39 PM   #6
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-Many early rigid MTB's. Especially amongst us frankenbikers, they are a virtually limitless platform to work with.

-Any of the "other" Trek roadbikes. All those unloved 330's, 400's etc.

-Can I call Klein underrated? I don't think they can be overrated, so they must be.

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Old 08-20-09, 03:47 PM   #7
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I think the entire line of mid '80's Tenax tubed Schwinns are highly underrated. And I've also been pleasantly surprised by how well my '74 Motobecane Grand Jubilee rides.

I wholeheartedly agree about the UO-8.
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Old 08-20-09, 03:49 PM   #8
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-Many early rigid MTB's. Especially amongst us frankenbikers, they are a virtually limitless platform to work with.
Yes, this.
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Old 08-20-09, 04:27 PM   #9
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I think the entire line of mid '80's Tenax tubed Schwinns are highly underrated.
+1
I have several of the mid to late eighties ones and am very impressed with them.
Blindfolded, I'm not sure I could tell the difference between the ride of my '87 Super Sport and my '89 Waterford built Paramount.

As far as Schwinn road bikes go, I think they are the most bang for your buck.
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Old 08-20-09, 04:35 PM   #10
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How interesting, since I was tempted to mention Marinoni in the other thread.
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Old 08-20-09, 04:36 PM   #11
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+1
I have several of the mid to late eighties ones and am very impressed with them.
Blindfolded, I'm not sure I could tell the difference between the ride of my '87 Super Sport and my '89 Waterford built Paramount.

As far as Schwinn road bikes go, I think they are the most bang for your buck.
I am quite fond of my 87 Super Sport frame also. Do not have a Waterford to compare it to, but it rides just as well as any of my other bikes.
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Old 08-20-09, 04:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
(EDIT: Forgot to mention - I mean C&V VLW's)

Figured I'd give the underrated machines a go:

5. Marinoni anything:
I'll be perfectly honest, I've never had any hands-on experience with one. I'm placing it here purely after reading what I've heard about them - namely that every single person who has owned one says they ride particularly well, and that all of them seem to show excellent workmanship. Furthermore, they seem to be, on the average, reasonably affordable (definitely so in comparison to most Italian machines).

-Kurt

Back in my shop days we shod Marinonis and to be honest with you we had more complaints about them than other make we sold. Every custom frameset we sold was NOT made to the specification requested. Regardless of it being the wrong color, wrong shade, wrong paint scheme or an incorrect fork crown everyone had issues. On top of that they had very delicate paint.

I'm not saying the lug work or brazing or chrome quality or ride quality was sub par but when a customer orders ABC and gets XYZ it says something about the company.
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Old 08-20-09, 05:04 PM   #13
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Back in my shop days we shod Marinonis and to be honest with you we had more complaints about them than other make we sold. Every custom frameset we sold was NOT made to the specification requested. Regardless of it being the wrong color, wrong shade, wrong paint scheme or an incorrect fork crown everyone had issues. On top of that they had very delicate paint.

I'm not saying the lug work or brazing or chrome quality or ride quality was sub par but when a customer orders ABC and gets XYZ it says something about the company.
Some of the stuff was subbed out - including frames coming in from Italy. They're not bad; just on so many people's "underrated" list that they've become overrated. Plus, some folks seem to think they're as good as the very best production shops, which they're not, IMO. Having said that, I could have bought one with 8-speed Dura Ace (pre-STI) for $350, and definitely should have bit. But mainly I'm responding to say I dig the new avatar.
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Old 08-20-09, 05:09 PM   #14
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How interesting, since I was tempted to mention Marinoni in the other thread.
Yeah, I was thinking this whole list could easily fit in the "overrated" post.

But I guess all bikes are overrated by some criteria. Anyway, the whole thing is subjective to the "rater". And there's a lot of overrated raters in this world.
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Old 08-20-09, 05:16 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Cudak888
4. Japanese-made "Series" PDG Paramounts:
Oversized, lugged cromoly steel frames with completely functional Shimano drivetrain systems - some higher end then others. Depending on the model, one can conceivably pick one of these up for under $300. What isn't to like about that? Furthermore, if you think all Paramounts ride similar to the second-gen models (i.e., overbuilt and often "dead"), you might think differently after riding one.
I passed on one for a great price on eBay just 2 weeks ago.
Are they legit or what?

I just sort of assumed they were simply hoe'd out version of a real Paramount...and for some reason i thought they were Aluminum.

maybe i should go back and kick myself a little.

I Gotta agree about the Super Course
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Old 08-20-09, 05:40 PM   #16
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I think the entire line of mid '80's Tenax tubed Schwinns are highly underrated.
Yes.

And any Valite-tubed Fuji is worth a look also. And sticking with Fuji, some surpisingly inexpensive ones have very nice triple-butted tubing also.

j
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Old 08-20-09, 05:50 PM   #17
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I would say there are probably dozens of framebuilders from the late '70s and early '80s that made frames as good as the top guys. Maybe the eye candy wasn't as impressive. Lots of those bikes go without love nowadays. I expect that their prices will never catch up to the top names, but that just makes the bikes a bargain. And some of them will catch on and gain price parity over time. I'm seeing crappy low-end production bikes go for 4 times what you can pay for a little known all-super record top of the line bike from a little known builders. I know where my money would go. If people want the production bikes, they can have them.
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Old 08-20-09, 05:50 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
(EDIT: Forgot to mention - I mean C&V VLW's)

Figured I'd give the underrated machines a go:



3. Miyata 710:
How can you argue with a bike that comes stock with a triple-butted cromoly frame and Suntour Cyclone, and is often found on Craigslist under $250? You can't. Sure, it has that unmistakable Japanese-build look to it, no lug thinning, thick fork crown shoreline, boring dropout-to-stay treatment - but so does a high-end Team Fuji for twice the price.
Early 710 were double-butted, but still real nice framesets.
I think you need to expand this to all the middle-tier Miyata road bikes (310-714) from, say, '81 to '90.
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('81 710, '87 512).
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Old 08-20-09, 06:06 PM   #19
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I think the entire line of mid '80's Tenax tubed Schwinns are highly underrated. And I've also been pleasantly surprised by how well my '74 Motobecane Grand Jubilee rides.

I wholeheartedly agree about the UO-8.
With what Miamijim stated, I'm tempted to replace Marioni with one of those Tenax machines - they didn't come to mind, but they are an obvious contender.

Come to think of it, I've always classified the Tenax machines with the mid to higher end Miyata (310-714, as Top suggests) and '83-86 Raleigh USA machines (Prestige, Super Course, Competition, Grand Prix, and the Team USA Replica).

-Kurt
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Old 08-20-09, 06:10 PM   #20
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-Can I call Klein underrated? I don't think they can be overrated, so they must be.
I'd say relatively underrated, in comparison to Cannondale.

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Old 08-20-09, 06:25 PM   #21
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I might also suggest the Vitus 888 motos.
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Old 08-20-09, 06:25 PM   #22
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The higher end Univega's and Lotus's, thought they have a following, are under-rated.

Faggin. Seriously. Find one person who has one who does not like it.

+1 on the early to mid-80' MTB's.

Mid-80's mid-level schwins (above Le tour, but below Paramount). Not souitable for the Tour de France, but basically $%$# good bikes.
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Old 08-20-09, 06:36 PM   #23
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A bike with better tubing than the UO-8, about 24# as originally equipped, and can usually be had at least as cheap as the Pug is the early 70's Gitane Interclub. The later ones could probably be included, too. A good solid inexpensive ride.
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Old 08-20-09, 06:45 PM   #24
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A lot of the bikes I have seen mentioned here I haven't really seen in real life at all. Only a few.

Some small name bikes which very few have heard about? Probably underrated

Especially in the past bikes have been such a regional thing. Different places have different bikes. The world before internet was a very different place. Even today searching for some bike manufacturer will get 4 or 5 results on this forum. Maybe they are mentioned somewhere on the internet , but the bikes being localized in real life makes them virtual bikes for most people.
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Old 08-20-09, 07:04 PM   #25
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Not a bad list, I'd have to agree on the Paramount and almost any Miyata ending in "ten."
The others, no clue hereabouts.

My own fault for driving up the value of my own personal "underrated" example, to the point where it's now fairly recognized as a pretty decent bike.
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