echotraveler

Hi guys,

yesterday i received a 1965 Moulton F-frame

the bike is in pretty good shape, but as you can imagine it has tiny spots of rust, its not really that bad at all, but i want to clean this babe before i assemble it.

I saw a couple of vids in the tube were they use Steel Wool, plainly just rub againts the affected area and then wipe off.......i did this today and it seems to work, but not entirly. for example there is some rust on the frame, i steel wool the mofo and only get it to smooth down, not gone just a lot less rust. then i wipe it with a rag that has some 3-in-1 oil.

have done already: seat steam, seat metals, both moulton racks, front rim, handlebar and controls.

they look better than before...

So i was concluding that i just needed to be very pacient. and then did a search . it seems im doing it wrong. I DONT WANT MICRO SCRATCHES ON MY BIKE!

theres many ways of tackling the problem like the acid in a kiddy pool which seems to be the best hands down.

i need something simpler, cleaner, earth friendly....

so i was thinking of 2 possible scenarios:

1. wd-40 and then steel wool

2. take juice from a few lemons and wipe, then wipe it off with humid towel, then clean with virgin towel..lol


not really sure how to use the lemon method.


What/were/when would steel wool be approved?

kendall

elecrolytic rust removal is certain to work, if you have a kiddy pool and a battery dharger you're good to go. It's a simple process that leaves the metal looking lke new. (it doesn't replace any lost metal, pits will be pits, but they'll be clean pits.)

With the right electrolyte it won't effect the paint at all.

Ken.

echotraveler

What/when/were does steel wool is to be used?

i was using it to derust my bike, but now im a bit hesitant to use it....in my toolbox i have

steel wool, wd40, 3 in 1 oil, rags, lemons, cola drinks....lol my toolbox/kitchen

I CANT DO KIDDY POOl METHODS....

wrk101

Put away the steel wool. It works by removing material. It does not know the difference between rust and chrome. So if you don't mind removing chrome, go ahead and use it.

Chrome plating on bikes tends to be really thin, particularly on the frame. I destroyed one chrome fork using steel wool. Never again.

Rust needs to be removed chemically. The chemicals (oxalic acid) knows the difference between rust and chrome (and paint and decals for that matter).


Search is your friend, there are endless threads on rust removal.

Roll-Monroe-Co

This.

Unless you plan on rechroming or repainting, just avoid steel wool. I have ruined chrome-plated things with it and really regretted it. #0000 is good for smoothing out an old paint job, but you will remove some paint along with tiny rust spots. I don't think any serious restorer would ever use this method, but I have dramatically improved the appearance of some old and ratty paint jobs this way (finishing with car wax).

Brass wool comes well recommended for lightish rust on chrome on this forum (brass is softer than chrome)--though I've never used it personally, and oxalic acid (there is also the electrical method, but that seems like so much more trouble than oxalic acid for the same results).

You will find religious fervor regarding various products and methods here, but few people will stand up for steel wool on chrome.

Ronsonic 

I have no use for steel wool. Whatever it can do a 3M Scotchbrite pad can do better and without shedding magnetic, irritating fragments of metal.

As mentioned, use brass wool or something softer than chrome to avoid scarring it.

Steel wool when used to scrub aluminum or stainless will embed enough steel into the material that it will rust and then need that removed. It's 19th century technology, best left there.

J T CUNNINGHAM

If your choice is in anyway abrasive, it will destroy the plating - even toothpaste!

Use the previously mentioned acid bath.


Regards,
J T

echotraveler

since my last post i got to work with the Steel Wool wd-40...i have to say that all my chrome parts got better (less rust, and more smooth feel), now that i read your posts ill stop using steel wool ....ill try make small batch of the acid...

thanx for your replys guys, i did use the search as noted on the OP....but the acid method is pretty risky for a house with a dog and a pregnant woman... non the less ill get some acid and be REALLY CAREFULL....

knoregs

For small batches just use vinegar. It takes a little longer but works just as good and is much safer.

~kn

Ronsonic 

For mild rust scrubbing with lemon juice or vinegar with aluminum foil works very nicely.

echotraveler

ok im going to try your safer method as my GF went nutz when i told her i was going to cook an acid bath at home...


do i dilute vingear in water and then throw some aluminum foil? any link???

can i put the wheel with the tube and tyre or should i deflate??

how about soaking a towel and mummyfy the frame?

sorry for asking but i havn't found the process for lemon or vinegar...have heard and read a lot of it, just not the process..

i know the drill for the acid...baking soda and all.....still a toxic process.


edit: im pretty much a newbie about this...can i just dip an old chain into a bath and pretend it to clean? i was thinking of either buying some GASOLINE and bath the chain .... or some nasty de-greeser...

knoregs

The distilled white vinegar you buy at the grocery store is already dilute. Most people use it for small parts. Immerse parts for a day and check. The reason people use the oxalic for frames besides it working extremely well, is the cost advantage. You but the crystals at a Sherwin Williams for $9 and mix it with water. A frame requires a kiddie pool setup so you can immerse it. To fill a kiddie pool with enough vinegar to submerge a frame wouldn't be cost effective. It would take many gallons to get it deep enough. I haven't tried the soaking a towel method. I assume it would work but doesn't do anything for the inside of the frame tubes.

Does anybody know if it's okay to dispose of the OA solution down the drain into my septic system? I know to neutralize with the soda first but I don't want to f' up my septic system.

~kn

echotraveler

thnx KN! ill follow your recipe and post results!...i read about the neutrilized acid being ok on the drain..still poison.

would LITHIUM lube stop rust on the inside of the frame?? since im not going to treat the frame.

Ronsonic 

The aluminum foil gets wadded up and used as a scrubby, wet the area with lemon juice or vinegar and scrub. There is no process. You'll feel real fast how it works. Smooth clean chrome it just slides smoothly on, the rust spots get scrubbed.

This works well on areas with either light rust dusting or small spots.

cycleheimer

Just used steel wool to "polish" some fenders stays I am using on a touring bike I just picked up. Works nicely. There are some jobs that steel wool is good for.

wrk101

Where did you get this information that neutralized is still poison? They sell this stuff as deck wash. Where does deck wash go when someone washes their deck?

wrk101

Bad news. vinegar is ACETIC ACID.

echotraveler

i read it on a thread using search....its not poison to the touch...its poison if ingested.


i read about vinegar eating metal too...but also many have used it with positive results...it just seems safer...

i was so pumpped up!

edit: wrk101 ive seen the results you got from the oxalic, and let me tell you its super impressive! after the inside of a frame is treated how do you seal it propely? can i throw a dirty crudy chain into the bath??

wrk101

I get a kick out of the poison thread. I use an oxalic bath that is 0.1% oxalic. So the bath is 99.9% water. Someone took the MSDS for pure, solid oxalic, and assumed the hazards of 100% oxalic acid apply to dilute forms.

Consider Coca-cola contains 0.2% to 0.3% phosphoric acid. Look up an MSDS on phosphoric acid. Let me quote from one: "Corrosive - causes burns. Harmful if swallowed and in contact with skin. May be harmful through inhalation. Very destructive of mucous membranes, respiratory tract, eyes and skin." And we are drinking it!

Or how about something on Vinegar (acetic acid): "Very hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive, permeator), of eye contact (corrosive). Liquid or spray mist may produce tissue damage particularly on mucous membranes of eyes, mouth and respiratory tract. Skin contact may produce burns. Inhalation of the spray mist may produce severe irritation of respiratory tract, characterized by coughing, choking, or shortness of breath." "MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for mammalian somatic cells."

Yet more on acetic acid: "The substance may be toxic to kidneys, mucous membranes, skin, teeth. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage." "Acetic acid vapors may form explosive mixtures with air."


Concentration is a huge part of the hazard of any chemical. Many chemicals in 100% pure strength are pretty hazardous: oxalic acid, phosphoric acid, acetic acid, and many, many more.


In no way do I want to convince you to use oxalic. I would like to have you consider if you are concerned about oxalic, then you should also have similar concerns about phosphoric and acetic acid. Some people are comfortable using dilute chemicals with the proper protection. Others are not.

Just one chemical engineer's opinion.


thrifty bill

echotraveler

thanx wrk101 your oxalix acid work is of great use to us here! when i get out of work ill go directly to a hardware store to buy some magic! lol

i was afraid because "ACID" is a big chemical word...still was very tempted to use it *mad scientist*

a couple of "bicycle enthusiats" at work cant believe the results of Oxalic Acid, and said they need to see to believe... they were all "go to this place and have it painted!" they dont seem to understand i want to preserve this bike, not make it look new, i want it to last and be functional....not so attractive to thieves...even thow the bike is super rare here in Puerto Rico.

thanx man

wrk101

edit: wrk101 ive seen the results you got from the oxalic, and let me tell you its super impressive! after the inside of a frame is treated how do you seal it propely? can i throw a dirty crudy chain into the bath??

I rinse it with a baking soda solution, then water. Then I quickly air dry (compressed air) and immediately treat the frame with frame saver.

I have put a rusty chain in the bath, but the oil and grease tend to muck up the bath. So I try to get as much of it off as possible. I usually treat small parts with the same dilute solution, but in a bucket or small container.

echotraveler

So today after work I went to home depot and true value...sigh non had oxalic acid

I asked for: wood bleach, deck cleaner, oxalic crystals, any kind of acid on solid form, any acid to treat wood

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO GET!? I'm gonna call every wood selling company, and paint house...lets see if its so freaking difficult!

Any other place?

knoregs

Dap wood bleach. It's sold at Sherwin Williams paint stores.


~kn

bikemeister

It's supposed to be a good fire starter! A 9 volt battery and some clean, fine steel wool - . Got the idea out of a survival book.

echotraveler

thanx guys! i found it! sherwin williams has it..

bikemeister, your correct! the modern way of fire.