Veloria

I am trying to get a good feel for the history and evolution of the mixte bicycle. I have researched the topic online, but have not come up with much in the way of concrete information (dates, designs, credit for invention of various styles, etc).The earliest example of a mixte I have seen is the 1947 Rene Herse. After that, there is a 25-year information gap until the typical Peugeots, Motobecanes and various Japanese bikes of the 1970s. I even have some books about bicycle history, and they do not say much about the mixte other than mentioning its existence. Is there a source out there that has compiled some historical info? It can be in a language other than English.

Bionicycle

I found this site https://www.rijwiel.net/kruisfre.htm a while back while looking for some history on Mixtes myself… It’s based out of the Netherlands, and from what it explains in a kind of round about way, the mixte is a leftover from a group of bike frames referred to as Cross frames, or Girder frames, or Truss frames.

The main thing I found interesting on the page, is the image of a page of bike frame drawings in the middle of the page. It is supposed date, from what I have gathered, from a periodical (Magazine) article written in 1901... Some of those frames probably never made it to production, but if you look at frame number 33, it sure looks like a classic Mixte to me… So that would make that frame style known at least in conception clear back to 1901...

bbattle

At the turn of the 19th century, the Patent Office had two buildings, one for regular patents and one just for bicycle patents.

Veloria

Interestingly, I just received the same material in German from an acquaintance right before posting this thread!

I guess the Crossframe is what we think of now as the "Priest Bicycle". I had not realised there were so many varieties!

I can see how a mixte can be described as a remnant of those styles (though I would phrase it as "an evolution out of those styles"). But at the same time, it seems to me that the French Mixte is a phenomenon all on its own. It has a different personality, and I suspect a different cultural history, than the rather somber crossframes. What do you think? Many bicycle-world acquaintances have mentioned to me now the "legendary '40s Frech bikes", by which they mean the exquisite constructeur randonneurs with mixte frames. But information about these is scarce.

badmother

Ask at Velo Orange. They used to have the best info about mixtes that I have found on the web. Some time back they changed it, and I regret that I did not store the webpage, but who could guess that they would remowe it?

I remember they said that Herse and Singer "invented" the bike to be used as a fast and stylish city bike for Paris in between the two world wars (I think it was) when fuel and cars was hard to find.

Veloria

Thanks badmother, I will contact them.

Batman_3000

This will make me unpopular, but here we go : irrespective of Rene Herse having made some mixtes, living in France and having mostly grown up here, there is the man's bike, for men and for women who race or may want to prove that they are no different from men; there are women's bikes for normal women (the definition of normal woman, I admit, has changed a bit since 1970); and there is the mixte which I have only seen used by women wanting the absence of high TT with a more sporting or whatever ride, and older men who may have difficulty in lifting a leg over a men's bike. Any other definition of post war mixte, you are being fed a tall and embellished story, likely as not by somebody who has a commercial agenda. Doesn't of course mean that mixtes can not now be considered fashionable or efficient or anything you like. Those are just the facts.

badmother

Both europe and the rest of the world is swarmed with French bikes (around here they are as common as empty bottles) so you do not need to be French to be familiar with the french bikes.

The mixte is first of all a stronger frame than the bikes for "normal women". The mixte is not that easy to step over, you really need to lift your leg. I just mowed the rear brake from over to under the "toptubes" to avoid kicking the brakes out of adjustment ewery tine I mount, I sometimes think that lifting my leg over the seat as on a mens bike would be easyer.

Maybe you see a lot of mixtes with dropbars but they can easely be set up with swept back bars. The bars and seat is what decides the riding style (if it is going to be for "normal women"- I think you mean riding more upright-or for the more sporty fast style). I`ve got two bikes with frames for "normal women" with drop bars, and a mixte with swept back bars so this is not really a good description of the difference. Maybe you just do not find them interesting so you did not really look into them?

Most of these are not bikes with dropbars: https://www.flickr.com/groups/mixte/pool/ https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ght=show+mixte

Kommisar89

Hey, quite that Batman...you're destroying my imagine of a normal French woman being Catherine Deneuve in the 1960's riding a mixte along the streets of Paris. By "women's bikes for normal women" I assume you mean a step-through frame. I know it's politcally incorrect today to refer to women's or girls' bikes but that's what we called them back in the day. I don't think I heard the term mixte until much more recent times. Admittedly, if you must have a bike without a traditional top tube I find them far more elegant than a step-through. My wife looks quite fetching on her white Peugeot mixte

BTW, the 1952 French Peugeot catalog shows a PH55 "mixte" frame however it is simply refered to as a "Model Dame" or Lady's Model with "cadre triangule ou berceau" - Batman, little help here with the translation?

edit: The 1950 Peugeot catalog also shows a "mixte" Model Dame PH65 with triangulated frame. The next earliest catalog I see is a 1936 and it shows a traditional step through frame. In the 50's Peugeot's lineup shows many "hybrid" type frames which look like mixte frames but with the triangulated tubes going down at a steeper angle and then bending at the seat tube to connect to the rear dropouts. They are still just refered to as Model Dame.

Batman_3000

[QUOTE=Kommisar89;9668234]
BTW, the 1952 French Peugeot catalog shows a PH55 "mixte" frame however it is simply refered to as a "Model Dame" or Lady's Model with "cadre triangule ou berceau" - Batman, little help here with the translation?

Triangulé is triangulated as you mention, cadre berceau is cradle frame. Which means nothing, because except monocoque, cradle frames are all frames, excepting oddities like the Dursley Pedersen, and even then it might be arguable that that particular design is just a variant on the cradle frame.

On the subject of the DP bike, is that age old argument about whether the thing is stressed or not still going on ? If so, here's an easy way to find out : use hi res digital camcorder at about 100 frames a second, take hacksaw to bicycle, and examine on film which direction, amplitude and speed the tube moved.

Anyway, cadre triangulé ou berceau was just a fancy tech type marketting term for impressing a unaware public, and furthermore, a mixte is a lady bike. Irrespective of whether it is equipped with drops or flat bars. Sorry to offend, but that is a undisputable historical fact

Fibber

Might I suggest 'traditional women's style step-thru frame' rather than 'bikes for normal women'?

Batman_3000

You are quite right in my not being particularly interested in mixtes, but were you to assume that I knew nothing of them, or disparaged people who are interested, you'd be very wrong. In fact, I bought one for my wife recently, haven't had time to clean it up / adjust it yet.



Sold at the time as a bike for women. There was the other version, for men, with a straight TT. A most interesting bike, alloy construction excepting fork. Goes by the name of Mecadural.

Batman_3000

Fibber, you are raising a very sensitive issue, a topic which may have the PC enforcers already at your place, aiming to drag you away to a re-education camp. You see, I'm not sure it's politically correct use the word "woman" , let alone associate the dreadful word with horrendously un-PC terms such as "normal" and "traditional".

Maybe it would be safer to go into hiding for a while. Or repent and use something like "A human powered two wheeled form of transportation stylishly adapted to the leg-lifting challenged oppressed minority of the female gender of mankind"

mkeller234

Omit the word female and you may be onto something...

Anyway, Batman that is a very very attractive bike... But in the spirit of this thread... without any kind of third stay isn't that just a step through frame?

Fibber

Might I remind you that you were the first to refer to this style bike as "there are women's bikes for normal women"? What is a normal woman? With that kind of attitude, I was trying to keep you from ending up in a Cambodian style killing field, with my wife as the camp commander!

badmother

A beautiful bike, your wife s lucky! But t is not a mxte. Third seat stay missing.

That being said I am sure we can excuse you for saying "normal women" and such. We must remember that english is not ewerybodys frst language (also not mine), I think we totally understand what you are saying.

Maybe the reason I lke the mixte is refuse to be a "normal woman". Sorry for that one.

Batman_3000

So, Badmother, the defining characteristic of the mixte is a three stay rear triangle setup ? Not sure everybody will agree with that. You might be right of course, but my understanding of mixte is the angle/height of the straight TT as opposed to the curved swan neck stepthrough, or similar. In a pile rusting away somewhere, I have several three stay stepthroughs dating 1930's.

Regarding the "normality" issue, and this is pertinent to the mixte vs stepthough "debate", the norm is what the vast majority do and is therefore considered to be normal, whether this majority behavior is of choice, or peer-pressure induced. The norm until quite recently, and most definitely in the early days of cycling, was for women to wear (longish) skirts, which rather hindered swinging a limb over a straight TT. I think that you will find that the "mixte" boom occurs at the time when women started wearing pants (trousers). That would make the mixte most politically correct, a kind of material reminder of the ultimately successful fight for rights of the suffragettes. And with that, I rest my case.

Jasmijo

Yes.

"A style of lady's frame in which the "top tube" consists of a pair of small diameter tubes running more-or-less straight from the upper head lug, past the seat tube, and on to the rear fork ends. A mixte frame thus has 3 sets of rear stays, instead of the usual two. A variant on the mixte uses a single, full sized top tube running from the upper head tube to the seat tube, but retains the middle set of stays. A lady's type bike that lacks the middle pair of stays is not a mixte."
-Sheldon Brown

Veloria

Batman_3000 -

As others have pointed out, the bike photo you posted is not a mixte. A mixte frame refers to a specific construction the definition of which Jasmijo has provided. Perhaps it might be a good idea to learn something about a topic before attemting to educate others about the "facts".

I am unconcerned with PC issues or with the terminology one wishes to use to describe females, or with the attributes one assigns to normal vs abnormal women. Whatever you like. I am, however, concerned with the history of the mixte frame. And please give me the benefit of a doubt before suggesting that I am being duped by somebody with a commercial agenda.

badmother

I decided to take it that he ment "normal bikes" for women, not "bikes for normal women" and that this is a language thing, not about bad attitude towards women .

If not he is right, al least in my case. I guess I am not normal (way too many bikes) and ride a mixte.

Also I is possible that the bike is named differently in France, at least "by mouth". When I worked in Zambi a ALL sewingmachnes was called Singer and ALL small motorbikes was called Honda.

Look at the bike he bought for his wife, he can`t be that bad??

Edit: About steptrough frames and skirts. Did some thinking and decided I think it is not just a "skirt" thing, some women used (big baggy) trousers one hundred years ago riding bikes, and riding a bike in a skirt is not THAT difficult, and why not a steptrough frame for men? My son call normal mens bikes for "nutcrackers". Should be a better reason to avoid mens bikes than a skirt is. I think it is mainly a modesty thing, remember how women was made to ride horses with both legs on one side? Did you try that? I think there was a lot of rules that we forgot about, and I think riding a mans bike then was far worse than a man wearing a dress in public today (in some areas nobody would look twice). The bikes was quite a big step forward on the way to womens liberation. Imagine all the damage that could have been done if they did not put plenty restrictions on it . Readng about bike riding one hundred yrs ago a lot of peopel tryed to say "a proper woman do not ride a bike", about how they must avoid at any price to start sweating and so on.

Batman_3000

Oh dear, sorry to have raised your hackles or otherwise offended you Veloria, no harm was meant. But such is the way of the written word without facial/body language/context to convey the subtler aspects of language.

Anyway, I still can't agree with the definition of a Mixte as pointed out to me in the words of Sheldon Brown, a great and much missed man. Three tubes on the rear triangle of which one comes from the headube (doubled) and is "wrapped" around the ST and prolonged to the rear DO, well I have seen many stepthroughs with that build. How about that definition but with specification that the steerer tube to rear DO tub(s) be straight, not "more or less straight" or whatever SB's definition was.

Anyway, again, no offence meant, and anybody can ride, like, admire, collect what they want. I do still stand by the fact that in France, Mixtes were considered and sold as women's bikes. And I'd admit that in a few years time when my legs get too stiff to lift, I'll go for a mixte.

mkeller234

Batman_3000, I have to agree that I see them as women's bikes too.

irwin7638

Gosh, it seems like a lot of gender issues being raised without purpose or a whole lot of information. I don't have any solid reference either, but my understanding is that the French designers came up with the mixte design as a useful city bike. What I have gleaned from different comments on blogs is that the market was actually delivery boys in Europe during the war years. The twin tubes create a little better lateral stability, the third stay more strength for carrying loads, and the lower top tubes simply make it easier to get on and off a heavily loaded bike. That (and the fact that they look really cool) is why I found a Raleigh frame to build into a city cruiser for next summer. Of course, women jumped on because it was easier to protect their modesty getting on and off with dresses, but I don't think that had anything to do with the origin or purpose of the design.

Bionicycle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixte_frame

Mixte

One particular type of step-through frame is called a mixte. In a mixte frame, the top tube of the traditional diamond frame is replaced with a pair of smaller tubes running from the top of the head tube all the way back to the rear axle, connecting at the seat tube on the way. The normal seat stays and chain stays are retained. This provides the greater standover height of a step-through frame bicycle while avoiding some of the additional stresses the step-through frame bicycle places on the seat tube.

A direct appropriation of the French word meaning "mixed" or "unisex", "mixte" is pronounced "MEExt", although the usual North American bicycle industry pronunciation of this loan word is "MIX-ty". Both pronunciations are widely used.

Somebody must be wrong????

Actually if you think about it, a Unisex frames made a lot of sense during the time period that the Mixte frame got popular. Most people could not financially afford multiple bikes. Many of the cross frame design were meant as “Unisex” bikes from the beginning.


Locomotief Unisex Crossframe Circa...1936-1955

Veloria

See, this is interesting. People today tend to equate the mixte with a city bike or a cruiser, but the typical mixte frame geometry is actually that of a road bike, in the sense that it has very steep seat tube and head tube angles. At least the 1970s-80s Motobecane mixtes were definitely meant as road bikes and touring bikes; they were direct parallels to the diamond frame models. I always thought the load capacity was there for touring and not for transport. I would be very interested to know the head&seat tube angles of the really early models, like the 1947 mixte from Rene Herse.