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Old 09-23-09, 09:41 PM   #1
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Drew gets a headset press and goes to work on a Cilo...



Sorry, had to do it

From: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=1#post9732747

-Kurt
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Old 09-23-09, 09:47 PM   #2
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Whoa.... It reminds me of Salvador Dali's painting of the melting clocks.

"still rideable"
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Old 09-23-09, 10:16 PM   #3
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I'm amazed. That should have been pretty hard to do...

but if the faces of the tube are still parallel, and the steerer tube fits through the hole, I don't think it would be unrideable. It would, in fact, be pretty darned cool. He should figure out how to symmetrically deform all of the tubes into a real Dali bike...
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Old 09-24-09, 04:10 AM   #4
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That's just the paint, which is never truly a solid, reacting to the forces of a hot day in Miami and gravity.

Kurt, ya can't fool me! You're not THAT strong!
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Old 09-24-09, 05:52 AM   #5
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That's just the paint, which is never truly a solid, reacting to the forces of a hot day in Miami and gravity.

Kurt, ya can't fool me! You're not THAT strong!
Nonsense. Here is recent security camera image of Kurt, working his way thru a pile of Huffys:
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Old 09-24-09, 06:43 AM   #6
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all kidding aside, what kind of pressure does it take to buckle a tube in that manner?
One can almost stand on a coke can (except for that bend at the bottom to allow stacking) but
minimal pressure will cause it to crumple if applied laterally. So was the headset press not
fitting correctly (or cups) and more pressure on one side than the other?
something doesn't quite add up here for me.

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Old 09-24-09, 06:54 AM   #7
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all kidding aside, what kind of pressure does it take to buckle a tube in that manner?
One can almost stand on a coke can (except for that bend at the bottom to allow stacking) but
minimal pressure will cause it to crumple if applied laterally. So was the headset press not
fitting correctly (or cups) and more pressure on one side than the other?
something doesn't quite add up here for me.

Marty
Marty, I agree with the Coke can analogy. I'm thinking one of the cup was started crooked which led to the lateral loading on the tube. Crooked cups take alot of press force to get started.
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Old 09-24-09, 07:11 AM   #8
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Marty, I agree with the Coke can analogy. I'm thinking one of the cup was started crooked which led to the lateral loading on the tube. Crooked cups take alot of press force to get started.
Sheesh. I knew it was key to get the cups going in straight, but never thought this could happen. I find it hard to believe, but Kurt could do it.

I've always said you have to take the same precautions with a headset press as with any other headset installation method-- block of wood and hammer, washer and bolt method, whatever. You've gotta be sure the cups are going in straight. The fancier tool is no replacement for eyes. I spent about a half hour recently ensuring the bottom cup in a HS installation went in right-- and I have a park press.

Still, I would think the cup would deform before the head tube. I wonder what those look like.
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Old 09-24-09, 07:47 AM   #9
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Be easier if you mounted a shim to have the press contact the tube at an angle.
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Old 09-24-09, 07:48 AM   #10
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Marty, I agree with the Coke can analogy. I'm thinking one of the cup was started crooked which led to the lateral loading on the tube. Crooked cups take alot of press force to get started.
According to the fellow in the Framebuilding forum asking about what he should do about this headtube following the damage, both ends had been faced following a brand-new powdercoat.

Supposedly, the cups were not reluctant to seat properly - that's what gets me more then anything else. I only wonder whether the powder was cured at a temperature much higher then the 380 +/- degrees Fahrenheit usually used for the purpose, and in the process, weakened the metallurgy.

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Sheesh. I knew it was key to get the cups going in straight, but never thought this could happen. I find it hard to believe, but Kurt could do it.
Wasn't me.

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Old 09-24-09, 08:10 AM   #11
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Supposedly, the cups were not reluctant to seat properly - that's what gets me more then anything else. I only wonder whether the powder was cured at a temperature much higher then the 380 +/- degrees Fahrenheit usually used for the purpose, and in the process, weakened the metallurgy.
Was it still hot? I would think overheating then cooling would make it brittle and more prone to cracking?
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Old 09-24-09, 08:29 AM   #12
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Was it still hot? I would think overheating then cooling would make it brittle and more prone to cracking?
Your guess is as good - if not better - then mine.

-Kurt
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Old 09-24-09, 08:58 AM   #13
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Extreme heat etc. can certainly mess up the metal, but I just don't believe powdercoating would have reached that kind of temperature. I'm thinking the wall thickness of head tube of this bike was just much thinner than expected.

At any rate, I agree with Luker, this damage does not make the frame dangerous. I see no reason for anything other than the head tube to be weakened. What could go wrong, beside the head tube crushes further due to the extreme pressures exerted on it by the headset? Possibly a crash would take a heavier toll on this head tube than usual; but until then, I don't foresee a problem.

And yes, it looks cool. I'd make a decal of a Dali clock face for a headbadge!
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Old 09-24-09, 09:12 AM   #14
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Surely the cups are not square now? Are headtubes typically straight gauge?
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Old 09-24-09, 09:13 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotek View Post
all kidding aside, what kind of pressure does it take to buckle a tube in that manner?
One can almost stand on a coke can (except for that bend at the bottom to allow stacking) but
minimal pressure will cause it to crumple if applied laterally. So was the headset press not
fitting correctly (or cups) and more pressure on one side than the other?
something doesn't quite add up here for me.

Marty
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Old 09-24-09, 09:18 AM   #16
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I'd just like the headtube with the 2 head lugs attached as an art for my mantlepiece.
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Old 09-24-09, 10:20 AM   #17
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I don't think that tubing really anneals, so the heat shouldn't have had that effect, no matter how hot the powder coater got it. In general, the ductility of the metal would depend on the cool down period. If the powder coater just left the frame in the oven to cool, that would lead to annealing -- if it was possible.

I was speculating in the framebuilder's forum that there was built in stress that would tend to push the head tube and lead to buckling. Maybe the head tube reamer took out too much material. Either way, this is a new one.

I was going to say "that'll buff right out," but I decided the owner had been punished enough.
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Old 09-24-09, 10:44 AM   #18
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i would actually expect there to be stress at the opposite ends of the top tube and down tube. the change in geometry might seem small, but i'm curious to see how much of a difference it really made.
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Old 09-24-09, 11:37 AM   #19
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I know I'm going to hear it but here it goes, for years all I've ever used to replace headsets is a block of wood and a rubber mallet, I just place the top set on the headtube with a block of wood on top of it, make sure its level and give it a good tap with the rubber mallet, 9 times out of 10 it sets right in place, then I place a block of wood on top of it and drive it in with the rubber mallet, takes me all of 2 minutes to do top and bottom, never a problem.
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Old 09-24-09, 11:47 AM   #20
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i do the same. I'll share the flames with ya.


...and I remove cups with a big ass flat head screwdriver and a hammer. carefully.
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Old 09-24-09, 11:49 AM   #21
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Surely the cups are not square now?
We can only speculate, but if pressure was applied evenly, then I'd speculate they are square now. Anyway, it's easy to check. If the fork can be installed and spin smoothly, then I think it's okay.
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Old 09-24-09, 12:07 PM   #22
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I know I'm going to hear it but here it goes, for years all I've ever used to replace headsets is a block of wood and a rubber mallet, I just place the top set on the headtube with a block of wood on top of it, make sure its level and give it a good tap with the rubber mallet, 9 times out of 10 it sets right in place, then I place a block of wood on top of it and drive it in with the rubber mallet, takes me all of 2 minutes to do top and bottom, never a problem.
+1. If the cups/headtube fit is OK to start with, there shouldn't be any problems, ever. And if it's wrong, no head press will cure that.
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Old 09-24-09, 03:12 PM   #23
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I would expect the wooden block and hammer method to work fine on most steel bikes myself. I have a reamer/headset press, so that's what I use.

It appears that the lugs are now offset by a large portion of 1/4", so the faces of the lugs cannot possibly be square.
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Old 09-24-09, 03:32 PM   #24
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Wasn't me.

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Sorry. I meant you could doit with your mighty strength, not that you would do it. That, of course is inconcievable. Now if you fed Bluto the spinach...
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Old 09-24-09, 04:52 PM   #25
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i do the same. I'll share the flames with ya.


...and I remove cups with a big ass flat head screwdriver and a hammer. carefully.
Nothing against the wood block method! I have a homemade press made by a machinist co-worker. It consists of a 7/8 inch fine threaded rod and large nuts, with solid brass drive cups machined to carefully match the rod and a Campy Record headset. The price was half a dozen Mexican lunches. When he brought it over so we could try it, it moved in a set of Campy cups like a knife through butter. He made a big point of not continuing to crank it down if the resistance to turning increases. After he looked at a head tube, he said this tool is easily capable of destroying it. I use it, but with caution, just like any other large hand tool.

Extra pressure will not force a set of cups into alignment if the head tube needs facing, instead.
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