Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. #1
    Senior Member due ruote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    4,016
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    frame alignment confusion

    Perhaps I should be posting this in the framebuilders subforum, but I opted for greater traffic.

    I've run into a snag with the Ted Williams I'm working on. I checked the alignment using Sheldon's string method, and after minor adjustment the chainstays are aligned. However, when I put the rear wheel in and center the rim between the chainstays, it's off-center vis-a-vis the seatstays. I thought maybe the wheel wasn't dished properly, but if I mount the wheel backwards, I get the same measurement. It's about 21mm from the rim to the seatstay on the non-drive side; 26mm on the drive side.

    I haven't yet done anything with the dropouts (I don't own the tool) but they appear to be reasonably straight. Is it possible for misaligned dropouts to throw the wheel off in that way? Or do I just have a funky frame? Any alternative theories, or ways to check various alignment issues without a frame table?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    375
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The string method can be inaccurate and give misleading results if the string isn't very tight and the measurements taken with great attention to detail. Could it be that you adjusted your frame out of alignment?

  3. #3
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor, MI
    My Bikes
    Terraferma 650b, Mondonico SL and ELOS, Masi Gran Criterium, Trek 610, Breezer Liberty, Georgena Terry Classic
    Posts
    10,766
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Several prerequisites:

    Is the wheel true and dished? Check for true on a bike frame with brakes and check for dish with a dish guage.

    Does your frame have horizontal or vertical dropouts? If horizontal, does it have adjuster screws? Are they adjusted so the plane of the wheel is at least parallel to the plane of the main triangle? The ends of the rear axle need to be equidistant from the BB axis, for the wheel to spin in or at least parallel to the plane of the main triangle.

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    5,285
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It does have adjuster screws, and as Road fan said, make sure they are even.

    When in doubt, assuming you don't have a micrometer, back them all the way out, then screw them back in, equal turns on each side..

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    My Bikes
    Cinelli, Paramount, Raleigh, Carlton, Zeus, Gemniani, Frejus, Legnano, Pinarello, Falcon
    Posts
    5,770
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If the wheel fits the same way when reversed its gotta be the frame.

    There is a tool to make the dropouts square to each other, a tool to align the dropout hanger, and a guide to lay on the side of the frame to check rear triangle vs the head/seat tube (which is what the string is doing). All worth having; maybe run the frame to a good bike shop, they should have the tools or an alignment table.

    If you have someone to help, or have some clamps, run a rigid rod or straight edge from head tube to seat tube inside the dropouts and measure from that.
    Last edited by dbakl; 10-27-09 at 11:47 AM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member randyjawa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada - burrrrr!
    My Bikes
    1982 Tomassini, 1963 Peugeot PX10, and eight special issue Canadian lightweights...
    Posts
    5,584
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    I'm confused also...

    When you reverse the wheel do you still get the same measurement value from the same stay? If so then your wheel is not properly dished - it is centered on the hub rather than offset to account for the freewheel.

    If, however, the measurement changes then it is probably not a wheel issue.



    Run the string up and around the head tube and ensure that it is very tight. Use a thing and strong string not a piece of binder twine. You want to be as accurate when measuring the distance from the spring to the side of the seat tube.



    Also, measure the distance between the inside faces of your rear drops. The measurement should be 120mm or 125mm if you are running an older frame set. If the measurement is not either or those, then you do have a chain stays alignment issue to deal with.

    I have written a complete article on how to preform this simple frame test and then implement repair. If you send me a personal email, I will send you the link and access information to the article.

    Hope this has been a help.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. #7
    Senior Member due ruote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    4,016
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
    When you reverse the wheel do you still get the same measurement value from the same stay? If so then your wheel is not properly dished - it is centered on the hub rather than offset to account for the freewheel.
    This doesn't make sense to me. Shouldn't the rim be centered on the over-locknut width? If so, flipping the wheel shouldn't change the rim-stay distances.

    When I run the string exactly as you show in the previous post, the string-seat tube measurement is identical on both sides. However, if I tie the string off at the brake bridge, it's off by almost 2mm. So it looks like I have a sloppy frame.

    I'll talk with the local shop and see what they'd charge me to scope it out on the table and see if adjustments can be made. This isn't a bike I want to sink a bunch of money into. If that course is cost-prohibitive, I'll fudge it the best I can.

  8. #8
    Senior Member randyjawa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada - burrrrr!
    My Bikes
    1982 Tomassini, 1963 Peugeot PX10, and eight special issue Canadian lightweights...
    Posts
    5,584
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    You're right...

    You are correct. The measurement should be the same either way when the wheel is reversed. Not sure what was going on in my mind at the time.

    Any chance that you took some pictures to help demonstrate the problem. I am kinda interested in how this repair plays out. I do wish you good luck.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Denver
    My Bikes
    Ciocc, Masi
    Posts
    51
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Could it be the the driveside dropout is a tiny bit higher than the non drive. And a tiny bit higher at the dropout could manifest itself to be a few MM up where the rim is?

    Just a guess...

  10. #10
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Tampa, Florida
    Posts
    11,611
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Crampangoslo View Post
    Could it be the the driveside dropout is a tiny bit higher than the non drive. And a tiny bit higher at the dropout could manifest itself to be a few MM up where the rim is?

    Just a guess...
    And its a good guess.

    Aside from it being a 'Ted Williams' what kind of rame are we dealing with?
    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  11. #11
    Senior Member due ruote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    4,016
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Crampangoslo View Post
    Could it be the the driveside dropout is a tiny bit higher than the non drive. And a tiny bit higher at the dropout could manifest itself to be a few MM up where the rim is?

    Just a guess...
    I think this is what's going on, and my plan is to file a smidge off the top of the non-drive side dropout. As you point out, it won't take much, and I don't think it will compromise the integrity. At least not enough to matter for the way I ride.

    [Aside from it being a 'Ted Williams' what kind of rame are we dealing with?]

    This is one of the 531 Ted Williams bikes made for Sears by Puch. It's been an interesting ride and I haven't been on the bike yet.

  12. #12
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Tampa, Florida
    Posts
    11,611
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Something to consider is the axle diameter. If its smaller than the dropout width there's a possibilty the wheels rocking to one side.
    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    375
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
    Something to consider is the axle diameter. If its smaller than the dropout width there's a possibilty the wheels rocking to one side.
    This is a good point. Using a large crescent wrench to gently bend the dropouts so as to tilt the wheel properly in the vertical direction could shift the axle's position high of one side and low on the other side (if there's slop in the dropout slots, or if you file to get some slop). If you tilt the axle in the dropouts, you need to tilt the dropouts or the wheel will just clamp down in the wrong place.

  14. #14
    Senior Member due ruote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    4,016
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by RapidRobert View Post
    If you tilt the axle in the dropouts, you need to tilt the dropouts or the wheel will just clamp down in the wrong place.
    That's a helpful observation. This is going to be a bit tricky - getting the wheel in the right place and keeping the dropouts parallel.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •