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Old 10-27-09, 02:10 PM   #1
Tom Velo Orange
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Ciocc- how to date? Worthy of restoration?

A friend has been using a Ciocc as her daily beater/commuter/ farmers market bike for the past 10 years. It's covered with nail polish and stickers with a blackburn rack ghetto clamped to it for an all around theft proof looking 'patina'. I saw seatstay caps with 'Ciocc' and my jaw dropped....

It was a garage sale find.

There's interest in doing some restoration type work on it on her part. I'm not sure of the exact direction to advise: Concours d' Elegance level, or a period daily rider? Strip off the stickers and hang a bunch of Campag on it? Or just upgrade the generic singlewall alloy rim/alloy hub J&B wheels that are on it now? It's not a Masi or Cinelli, but it's at least made in Italy, and at least old enough for it to be included in discussions here.

How do I deterrmine a more exact age? Did Ciocc ever spec Shimano on their bikes? At what level, beginning when?

Where I am gloriously embarking on another vintage time toilet. I just hope it's worth the effort.
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Old 10-27-09, 02:22 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Tom Velo Orange View Post
It's not a Masi or Cinelli, but it's at least made in Italy, and at least old enough for it to be included in discussions here.
Ciocc's used Columbus SL and SLX in their smaller sizes, so at least the frame is as good as other italian makers of the era. I'd look at the frame spacing and wheel size to try to get an idea of how old the bike is (i assume that there are no original components left. If they are and if there are Campy, you can probably ball park a date based on the components). Definitely worth it.

Check this link out for an inspiring Ciocc save:

http://evilsmurfs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12233
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Old 10-27-09, 02:23 PM   #3
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Any idea of the model?

Ciocc's are very nice bikes, worthy of being saved.

Of course, pictures would help

I believe this was recently posted here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJHwP...layer_embedded

Last edited by Old Fat Guy; 10-27-09 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 10-27-09, 03:10 PM   #4
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Really hard to tell without seeing how far gone the original finish is. If it's still presentable, I'd just clean it up, and adapt it to whatever purpose makes most sense. Fitting it out as a city bike would mean a very different build up than would building it as a period correct joy ride, which would be very different from building it out as a vintage hot-rod.

If the finish is shot, then you have the additional consideration of whether you want it to look like it did originally, or whether it gets a new and different look. My personal preference has been to either disregard the original finish (why go through all the trouble and expense for a standard you're almost guaranteed to come up short on?), or to select something that's different from the original, but evocative of the original. Your preference may or may not follow mine though. That's certainly not a problem in my opinion.
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Old 10-27-09, 03:22 PM   #5
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Being a mountainbiker more than a roadie I am a lurker in this forum and don't usually have any answers. The one road bike I own is a CIOCC that I bought new back in 88. As much as I would like to say it came with a nice Campy group, the actual answer is no, it came equiped with a beautiful to me Shimano 600 group. So to answer your original question, Yes CIOCC's came with Shimano groups.
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Old 10-27-09, 03:51 PM   #6
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Most if not all ciocc bikes were probably imported as bare framesets. They were then eithor sold as bare frameset to be built up by the owners however they chose, or a LBS or mail order sales company would start with a bare frame and offer it built up with thier own "standard" selection of parts. By an large, I dont think that Ciocc frames came completely built up and ready to ride directly from manufacturer in Italy with standardized "models" of components specified in a glossy brochure such as was done by raleigh, peugeot and most japanese bikes.
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Old 10-27-09, 03:58 PM   #7
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Most if not all ciocc bikes were probably imported as bare framesets. They were then eithor sold as bare frameset to be built up by the owners however they chose, or a LBS or mail order sales company would start with a bare frame and offer it built up with thier own "standard" selection of parts. By an large, I dont think that Ciocc frames came completely built up and ready to ride directly from manufacturer in Italy with standardized "models" of components specified in a glossy brochure such as was done by raleigh, peugeot and most japanese bikes.
they actually were both. Here are links to 2 CIOCC catalogs, they indicate whole bikes (with prices) as well as individual framesets:

http://www.bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/ciocc/


http://www.bulgier.net/pics/bike/Cat...iocc%28tsd%29/
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Old 10-27-09, 05:14 PM   #8
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Note that the ten speed drive import catalog describes that they (ten speed drive imports) would build-up the complete bikes they offered starting from bare frames.

Interesting that the other Italian catalog does show some ciocc pantographed parts. The presence of a ciocc pantographed crank would probably be a very strong indication it was an original italian assembled bike (vs a frameset built up by an importer). Cool picture in the catolog of the ciocc tandem, I would imagine that those are exceedingly rare in USA.
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Old 10-27-09, 05:34 PM   #9
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Giovanni Pelizzoli may had sold the Ciocc name by the time of TSD, not sure.

There seems to be a lot of contradictory information on the internet, a good article is here:
http://www.velonews.com/article/13880
and there is a short film out right now about him, called 'Anima D'Acciaio', 'Heart Of Steel'. Trailers are available all over the net.

I would never question EjustE's expertise on all things Italian, given his track record.
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Old 10-27-09, 05:52 PM   #10
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bought a new san cristobal in 1981 - frameset only; I think the panto-stuff was an order option. most people I knew were racing discounted nuovo record groupsets.
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Old 10-28-09, 10:45 AM   #11
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The mid 80's TSD bikes have a braze on front derailleur mount, and the Aelle model was only imported in blue by them. The 1977 catalogue shows the SL/SLX bikes with a braze on mount, and all stays chromed, with more color options. The Aelle tubed framesets had no f. der mount and just the right chainstay chromed, which is closer to how the Ciocc in question is. There's a 10 year span between both catalogues. It would be nice to have more info. Either one is not a perfect match. not having a serial number to date it is making it harder. And not having any original decals or model info is making it harder still.

I'm thinking it's Aelle, lower end than SLX. Maybe inspecting at BB shell for SLX fluting will give a better clue? It's a smaller frame though, and SLX was not always used in smaller frames bacause smaller frames were stiff enough.

How do I see the difference between SL and Aelle tubing?
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Old 10-28-09, 10:49 AM   #12
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Are the cables routed over or under the BB?

What is the seatpost size?

Once again, good pics would help a teeny bit.
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Old 10-28-09, 11:25 AM   #13
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How do I see the difference between SL and Aelle tubing?
The best way to tell the difference between tubing with no identification marks is the only one:

a. Strip the bike to the tubes
b. weight it with the most accurate scale you can find
c. note the tube diameter in the middle and by the lugs for each tube
d. take exceptionally good measurements of its geometry of the bike
e. search the literature for data.

It might require some math (converting the weighs of 'standard' sizes to your size), the differences between 2 different frames built by different tubes esp. in small sizes can be minuscule (esp. between SL and SLX with SL being slightly lighter).

Here are 2 good places to start as far as Columbus tubes go:

http://equusbicycle.com/bike/columbu...cat/index.html

http://equusbicycle.com/bike/columbus/columbuschart.htm

The difference between Aelle and SL is close to .75 lbs (in a 52cm size, I think), so it should be obvious. Aelle and SP are closer
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Old 10-28-09, 11:53 AM   #14
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seat post size: a 27.2 if it's SL, a smaller size (maybe 26.8, maybe not) if it's REGULAR Aelle, not sure about Aelle R. Very unlikely that a small frame would use SP for the seat tube. SLX would have rifling in the tubes you can feel inside the BB junction.
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Old 10-28-09, 12:16 PM   #15
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Photos will be coming. but it's in pretty rough shape now. NONE of the original decals are there. just ciocc seatstay caps.
I love projects like this......
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Old 10-28-09, 12:17 PM   #16
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and cables are routed under BB. post will be coming out this weekend. or friday.
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Old 10-28-09, 12:49 PM   #17
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SLX tubing was not introduced until the mid- 1980's, so if it has the SLX helical ridges, it is definitly not 70's or early 80's. SLX was a fairly pricy upgrade over a standard SL frame. I would guesse that there were many more plain SL fraimsets sold in comparison to SLX for the years they were both offered. Just because it does not have ridges, I would not rule out being a mid to late 80's frame.
I had a mid 1980's columbus SL concorde wich was a badge engineered twin of ciocc, made in the same factory but labeled and marketed differently. One of the characteristics of the concorde I remember was that all the tubes were pinned to the bottom bracker prior to brazing. If you remove the BB, you can see/feel the pins inside the tubes. This is more indicative of a mass-produced factory frame (which ciocc and concorde were by the mid 80's), as opposed to the earlier artisian built handcrafted frames.
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Old 10-28-09, 02:10 PM   #18
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I'll pick a nit with the above^: many individual builders used pins, I think it's a technique less indicative of a mass-produced frame, not more, since there's additional hand-work involved to drill the holes, tack in the pins, and grind them flush. Some of the Colnago builders used pins, Richard Sachs still does. When Pellizoli sold the Ciocc name, production of them plus the Concordes and Conti frames were done by one of the big contractors, probably Billato. Details of these later frames were different from the earlier classic Ciocc models (whether Mockba, San Cristobal, Designer 80 and 84) but I wouldn't say quality was substantially worse...they are just different.
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Old 11-22-09, 05:24 PM   #19
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Here's a photoset on flickr of the Cioccc in question. I kinda love the girme and stickers and paint, but it also breaks my heart.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/luckywh...7622854617126/
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Old 11-22-09, 05:47 PM   #20
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How does a bike like that, get to be a bike like that?
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Old 11-22-09, 06:34 PM   #21
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the frame was bought at a garage sale years ago. For an obscenely low price.
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Old 11-22-09, 06:40 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Tom Velo Orange View Post
Here's a photoset on flickr of the Cioccc in question. I kinda love the girme and stickers and paint, but it also breaks my heart.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/luckywh...7622854617126/
it's got that urban bling-in-reverse thing...but it would sure be nice to get it clean where it counts (mechanicals) and lubed and tuned...she could leave the comestics as-is to reduce theft magnetism, and just upgrade to newer stickers as they become available.
It's got the shorter lugs with the more generic cutouts, but still the classic forkcrown and BB piercing, plus some chrome...so still hard to say exactly what model and whether it's Aelle or not, only thing for sure is it's not a San Cristobal.
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Old 11-22-09, 06:51 PM   #23
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I've not seen someone carry items inside the wheel like that before.

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Old 11-22-09, 07:16 PM   #24
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I've not seen someone carry items inside the wheel like that before.

That looked like a bird feeder to me when I first saw it...

that said. Remove the stickers and this frame is in pretty nice shape. (what the hey is that rear brake, btw?)

on another note, this shot:



gives some serious clues about the age of the bike (TT vs ST mounted pump). Mid to late 80s methinks.
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Old 11-22-09, 07:45 PM   #25
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The BB shell has non pointed chainstay lugs, and there's a chainstay bridge, which I have not seen on earlier Ciocc's before. The seat lug is not investment cast. The dropouts are not campy. The cable guides are oval with 2 loops. The BB has cable tubes underneath instead of grooves cut in the shell. Looks like the builder used these frame parts to keep cost down at some point.

I will check the seatpost in a few days.

To clarify the history, the frameset was found at a garage sale, like 10-15 years ago. friend stickered and painted it, more as theft prevention than anything else.
A mid-90's campy wheelset was installed, akong with a low end shimano crank, ultegra derailleurs and rear brake, 105 shifters and front brake.

Even if it's a late 80's Alelle frame, it still deserves campy (chorus, Croce, etc), and a new paint job if/when removal of stickers and housepaint destroys the original.
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