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  1. #26
    Seņor Member USAZorro's Avatar
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    Link to the other (now closed) thread.
    The search for inner peace continues...

  2. #27
    Since 1938... JunkYardBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
    Link to the other (now closed) thread.
    Could you also post a link to this thread in the other - as the final post of that thread - in the event some participants may have be subscribed to it or have it bookmarked?

  3. #28
    Rustbelt Rider mkeller234's Avatar
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    Well, I am up to 21 entrys so far. I decided that I will jumble the entry numbers once they are all in. That way, there is even less chance of guessing who is who.
    |^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| ||
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  4. #29
    The Brave Descender High Fist Shin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rat fink View Post
    I have a variation on the freebie question: Suppose you acquired a dumpster bike and sold the groupset for a price high enough that you were able to purchase all new parts and have money left over... Does the entire bike count as a single freebie even though it was complete? Does the dollar value count on the new parts you 'traded' for?
    To answer your question, it doesn't matter how you came by the money, if you spent cash on parts for your entry, it counts towards your budget, even though that cash came from the sale of "free" parts.

    -Shin
    In life there are no mistakes, only lessons. -Shin

  5. #30
    Senior Member bigvegan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machin Shin View Post
    To answer your question, it doesn't matter how you came by the money, if you spent cash on parts for your entry, it counts towards your budget, even though that cash came from the sale of "free" parts.

    -Shin
    That doesn't quite make sense. Yes, the cash spent on new parts should count TOWARD your budget, but the cash made from any parts on the project bike that are sold should be deducted FROM your budget, NO?

  6. #31
    Seņor Member USAZorro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigvegan View Post
    That doesn't quite make sense. Yes, the cash spent on new parts should count TOWARD your budget, but the cash made from any parts on the project bike that are sold should be deducted FROM your budget, NO?
    It's really a question of what the money is being deducted from. If I buy bike for $30.00, sell parts from it for $50.00, and then buy more parts for $40.00 that I use on the bike, the original bike could be the freebie (presuming there's not another), and you'd have $40.00 in budget for the parts you bought. NOT the $20.00 you'd have by lumping the entire budget $30.00 on bike + $40.00 on parts - $50.00 on the sale of parts. ...at least that's my understanding of it. I'll accept correction by the judges if they say this is incorrect.
    The search for inner peace continues...

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
    It's really a question of what the money is being deducted from. If I buy bike for $30.00, sell parts from it for $50.00, and then buy more parts for $40.00 that I use on the bike, the original bike could be the freebie (presuming there's not another), and you'd have $40.00 in budget for the parts you bought. NOT the $20.00 you'd have by lumping the entire budget $30.00 on bike + $40.00 on parts - $50.00 on the sale of parts. ...at least that's my understanding of it. I'll accept correction by the judges if they say this is incorrect.
    Hopefully this clarifies things and does not conflict with previous rulings:

    1. The cost of different items acquired independently is independent.

    2. Any item has a minimum cost of $0. So in the case of purchasing a bike then selling off parts of said bike for equal or greater amount than what you paid for the whole, the remaining bits count as free, but not negative cost.

    1 + 2 = The sale of parts from a whole only counts towards reducing the cost of the remaining bits from the whole. The savings are not transferable to other items. If I buy a whole bike for $40, spend $20 on new wheels, then sell the old wheels for $70, my total cost for the budget is $20 - new wheels weren't part of the original whole plus the cost of the purchased bike cannot drop below $0.

  8. #33
    working on progress treebound's Avatar
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    Let's see now, first it's a good thing I didn't draft up a number plate, if the ends up with one on it. But the number jumble is a good idea.

    Next, if I work this right I wonder if I could end up with a negative-$$$ value, nah not in my local market currently.

    Made some progress by actually digging my way through the bike jumble to one potential project bike. Might change my mind though due to fork issues. Maybe I'll just invert some ape hangers and build a stretch limo funny bike fixed gear Drew Special.

  9. #34
    Senior Member cnnrmccloskey's Avatar
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    Just gotta wait for the snow here to melt so I can start rummaging

  10. #35
    The Brave Descender High Fist Shin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigvegan View Post
    That doesn't quite make sense. Yes, the cash spent on new parts should count TOWARD your budget, but the cash made from any parts on the project bike that are sold should be deducted FROM your budget, NO?
    That's just it. Velo-Cheapo is about creative use of what you have, what you can find or what you can buy. There aren't any awards or bonus points for creative money management. It comes down to how much you spent and that's all. If you found a free bike in the trash and sold the parts for cash, I gotta ask, why didn't you use the whole bike or the parts for your entry?

    It's not that complicated, what you spend on the bike, no matter where the money came from counts towards the budget. Here is an example that I hope will clear this up.

    I buy a Peugeot for $50.00. It has the nasty Simplex Prestige derailleurs and they just happen to be broken. Next day I find a donor Nishiki bike in the trash. I decide to use the whole bike as my freebie and proceed to swap the derailleurs over to the Peugeot. I then add new tires, $20.00 and tubes, $10.00 and handlebar tape for $10.00.

    Total price:
    Peugeot $50.00
    Nishiki parts bike $ Freebie $
    Tires and tubes $30.00
    Handlebar tape $10.00
    Total $90.00

    If I sell the wheels off the Nishiki for $40.00 and then use that money to buy, for example, front and rear racks for the Peugeot, then you add it to the budget.

    Front rack $20.00
    Rear rack $20.00

    Now your total is $130.00.

    -Judge Shin
    Last edited by High Fist Shin; 01-04-10 at 08:43 PM.
    In life there are no mistakes, only lessons. -Shin

  11. #36
    sultan of schwinn EjustE's Avatar
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    Alright, here is a question for the judges (about valuation of things) : Let's say one buys a bike for $X and sells its frame for $2X and keeps the components for this competition. What value would you place on those components? (In my book, it should be a negative value), but I want to hear what the judges would say...

    (and this is my 1,000th post, so I better pop a cork -tape that is)
    -E

    still stuck in the '80s; '70s were good as well, but i severely dislike tubulars.
    I tri...

  12. #37
    Since 1938... JunkYardBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stausty View Post
    Hopefully this clarifies things and does not conflict with previous rulings:

    1. The cost of different items acquired independently is independent.

    2. Any item has a minimum cost of $0. So in the case of purchasing a bike then selling off parts of said bike for equal or greater amount than what you paid for the whole, the remaining bits count as free, but not negative cost.

    1 + 2 = The sale of parts from a whole only counts towards reducing the cost of the remaining bits from the whole. The savings are not transferable to other items. If I buy a whole bike for $40, spend $20 on new wheels, then sell the old wheels for $70, my total cost for the budget is $20 - new wheels weren't part of the original whole plus the cost of the purchased bike cannot drop below $0.
    This is a workable accounting process, and if we agree to go this way, I'm fine with it. However, I personally dislike it because it gives advantage to flippers. I could probably build a bike for near $0 because I'll often sell parts/frame/etc. of a purchase for more or equal to the original purchase price. If we want to reward this, that's fine.

    As I see it, however, this competition is a friendly one that should be made as fair as possible to everyone involved. To me, this means all participants should try, as individuals, to account for costs as fairly as possible. There is no way that we, as judges, can audit each entry. We're working on the honor system here.

    The two salient 'guidelines' I pull from the rules (which are unchanged from last year's competition) are:

    1. Complete bike purchased for parts may be included in the expenses either as the total cost of the bike or an FMV for each item used, at the builder's discretion.

    2. The expense area is the only real way to cheat since there is no documentation required outside your word. Every builder is on the honor system, don't cheat, this is just for fun and karma will eventually kick you in the ass if you do. Play clean!

    So in my opinion, unless an item is pulled from the trash, it must be accounted for monetarily, with the exception of the ONE freebie, which may be acquired free in ways other than a trash find. Therefore, if you buy a bike for $20, sell everything but the crank for $300, and use the crank for your project, you should assign it's value as $20 or whatever you deem the FMV to be for that particular crank.

    This is simply an alternative opinion. If most of us would prefer to reward the 'flipper's economy', I'm fine with it.

  13. #38
    Since 1938... JunkYardBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machin Shin View Post
    That's just it. Velo-Cheapo is about creative use of what you have, what you can find or what you can buy. There aren't any awards or bonus points for creative money management. It comes down to how much you spent and that's all. If you found a free bike in the trash and sold the parts for cash, I gotta ask, why didn't you use the whole bike or the parts for your entry?

    It's not that complicated, what you spend on the bike, no matter where the money came from counts towards the budget. Here is an example that I hope will clear this up.

    I buy a Peugeot for $50.00. It has the nasty Simplex Prestige derailleurs and they just happen to be broken. Next day I find a donor Nishiki bike in the trash. I decide to use the whole bike as my freebie and proceed to swap the derailleurs over to the Peugeot. I then add new tires, $20.00 and tubes, $10.00 and handlebar tape for $10.00.

    Total price:
    Peugeot $50.00
    Nishiki $ Freebie $a
    Tires and tubes $30.00
    Handlebar tape $10.00
    Total $90.00

    If I sell the wheels off the Nishiki for $40.00 and then use that money to buy, for example, front and rear racks for the Peugeot, then you add it to the budget.

    Front rack $20.00
    Rear rack $20.00

    Now your total is $130.00.

    -Judge Shin
    +1 Very well put Judge Shin!

  14. #39
    Since 1938... JunkYardBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EjustE View Post
    Alright, here is a question for the judges (about valuation of things) : Let's say one buys a bike for $X and sells its frame for $2X and keeps the components for this competition. What value would you place on those components? (In my book, it should be a negative value), but I want to hear what the judges would say...

    (and this is my 1,000th post, so I better pop a cork -tape that is)
    In my opinion, and I believe Shin's as well, those components should be accounted for as costing your original $X, or you should assign those used on your project a FMV, individually, if that is the lesser amount.

    I believe stausty would rule the components cost you $0.

    Now all we need is a consensus. I have no trouble honoring the consensus of the competition's entrants. But if that's too complicated to determine, it appears the judges rule 2-1 in favor of accounting for the components as greater than $0.
    Last edited by JunkYardBike; 12-29-09 at 09:03 PM.

  15. #40
    Wherever I may roam....
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    This sounds like fun. I just have to rid my basement of all the sawdust from my wifes Christmas present (a Mission style Ash coffee table) and figure out which bike could be a candidate....

  16. #41
    Since 1938... JunkYardBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobE30 View Post
    This sounds like fun. I just have to rid my basement of all the sawdust from my wifes Christmas present (a Mission style Ash coffee table) and figure out which bike could be a candidate....
    I can't wait to see it!







    This actually looks doable:



    And of course, the internet legend:


  17. #42
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    I was thinking that I might have to account for costs in two ways: 1) estimated value of the parts and 2) their actual cost to me. One is certainly going to be higher than two as a result of flipping activities. For example, the pedals I will likely use came off of a bike I bought for $140 and sold for $150 (and substituted some pedals that came off a bike I found in the trash). And several other parts will likely come from a bike I bought for $100, mostly for its brand new Brooks B17. That CL purchase was completed by a local friend who was one town away from the seller. He kept the frameset, and I got all of the parts, including the B17, so I could imagine that I assign a value of $75 to the saddle and figure everything else cost me $25 (wheelset, crankset, brakes, bars, etc.)? And, finally, I have managed to amass items in the parts bin of which I have no idea as to origins; they likely came from geared bikes that I stripped down and sold off as single speeds. As I said, two values: estimated value and actual cost.

    Neal

  18. #43
    Senior Member michael k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnnrmccloskey View Post
    just gotta wait for the snow here to melt so i can start rummaging
    x2

  19. #44
    Since 1938... JunkYardBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
    I was thinking that I might have to account for costs in two ways: 1) estimated value of the parts and 2) their actual cost to me. One is certainly going to be higher than two as a result of flipping activities. For example, the pedals I will likely use came off of a bike I bought for $140 and sold for $150 (and substituted some pedals that came off a bike I found in the trash). And several other parts will likely come from a bike I bought for $100, mostly for its brand new Brooks B17. That CL purchase was completed by a local friend who was one town away from the seller. He kept the frameset, and I got all of the parts, including the B17, so I could imagine that I assign a value of $75 to the saddle and figure everything else cost me $25 (wheelset, crankset, brakes, bars, etc.)? And, finally, I have managed to amass items in the parts bin of which I have no idea as to origins; they likely came from geared bikes that I stripped down and sold off as single speeds. As I said, two values: estimated value and actual cost.

    Neal
    Is that a question Neal?

    Do you mean you'll have to account for your costs in two ways, to arrive at one estimate? Or do you mean to point out that on most of these projects, there will be an actual cost and an estimated value? Maybe participants should calculate and submit both?

    From a judging perspective, it's apropos that the only 'objective' criterion becomes a tangled nest!

    I did have premonitions the accounting might cause controversy, but it appears to have worked itself out last year. Were you dissatisfied with the accounting process last year Neal?

    I'm all about process decisions on something like this, but it could potentially take longer to iron out than the duration of the contest itself.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JunkYardBike View Post
    In my opinion, and I believe Shin's as well, those components should be accounted for as costing your original $X, or you should assign those used on your project a FMV, individually, if that is the lesser amount.

    I believe stausty would rule the components cost you $0.

    Now all we need is a consensus. I have no trouble honoring the consensus of the competition's entrants. But if that's too complicated to determine, it appears the judges rule 2-1 in favor of accounting for the components as greater than $0.
    I see the wisdom in your and Shin's argument. List what you paid or traded for everything you paid or traded for, minus the freebe. And don't make it needlessly complicated.

  21. #46
    The Brave Descender High Fist Shin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stausty View Post
    I see the wisdom in your and Shin's argument. List what you paid or traded for everything you paid or traded for, minus the freebe. And don't make it needlessly complicated.


    -Shin
    In life there are no mistakes, only lessons. -Shin

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by JunkYardBike View Post
    Is that a question Neal?

    Do you mean you'll have to account for your costs in two ways, to arrive at one estimate? Or do you mean to point out that on most of these projects, there will be an actual cost and an estimated value? Maybe participants should calculate and submit both?

    From a judging perspective, it's apropos that the only 'objective' criterion becomes a tangled nest!

    I did have premonitions the accounting might cause controversy, but it appears to have worked itself out last year. Were you dissatisfied with the accounting process last year Neal?

    I'm all about process decisions on something like this, but it could potentially take longer to iron out than the duration of the contest itself.
    More of a rambling thought than a question. I had no problems with the accounting last year, but I mostly commented to point out that as one of those flippers/hoarders, I likely do have an advantage. Thus, I likely should report both actual costs and component value.

    Neal

  23. #48
    working on progress treebound's Avatar
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    Budget killer:
    http://aebike.com/page.cfm?action=de...=30&SKU=HU2204

    On to plan-b and revisiting the fork issue.

    Question: do these have to fit us or can I build up a kid's bike, or maybe take an old BMX Schwinn Predator down off the wall and set it up with a super tall stem and drop bars and a mega-long setback seatpost and a pair of recumbent 20"x1-3/8" road slicks and bolt on a bolt-on derailleur hanger and convert it to a pseudo-10-speed grocery grabber?????

    It's no fun when the plans turn left while you were leaning hard right.

    Consider any questions above just rhetorical, besides I'd probably use the GT Pro Performer for that conversion since it has the stand on top surfer bars which I'd use instead of drops.

    Confused? Perfect, then the plan is working .... 8-)

  24. #49
    The Brave Descender High Fist Shin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by treebound View Post
    Budget killer:
    http://aebike.com/page.cfm?action=de...=30&SKU=HU2204

    On to plan-b and revisiting the fork issue.

    Question: do these have to fit us or can I build up a kid's bike, or maybe take an old BMX Schwinn Predator down off the wall and set it up with a super tall stem and drop bars and a mega-long setback seatpost and a pair of recumbent 20"x1-3/8" road slicks and bolt on a bolt-on derailleur hanger and convert it to a pseudo-10-speed grocery grabber?????

    It's no fun when the plans turn left while you were leaning hard right.

    Consider any questions above just rhetorical, besides I'd probably use the GT Pro Performer for that conversion since it has the stand on top surfer bars which I'd use instead of drops.

    Confused? Perfect, then the plan is working .... 8-)
    You can build up anything you like. I think a cheapo kids bike would be a cool idea. Go for it!

    -Judge Shin
    Last edited by High Fist Shin; 12-30-09 at 08:21 PM.
    In life there are no mistakes, only lessons. -Shin

  25. #50
    working on progress treebound's Avatar
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    Hmmm, plan-K then, got some napkin sketching to do, possibly even dust off a sewing machine or oil up the leather stitcher. Hmmmm, thinking ....

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