moses

What a horrible start to the new year. Despite my claim that the bike was fine when shipped and that I would have nothing to gain by selling a damaged bicycle, the buyer refuses to approach UPS but wants to be compensated by me. He hadn't changed his old address on ebay, so I shipped it there and it sat from Dec. 14 to 28 before he retreived it. This was my third bike sold on eBay, but likely my last. To even make this muddier I offered to just take the bike back which he promptly declined (he likes the bike). His refusal to believe me is based on how well I had packed the bike. Has anyone had bikes damaged in transit despite being well packed? The damage is to the big chainring and the back derailleur (sort of a coincidence on the same side and bottom of the bike box).

His complaint was
"Hey, so I made the trek and retrieved the bike. I got it home,
unpacked and assembled. I have to say the packing job was
thoughtful seemed to be very effective.
Because the packing job was so good, I feel confident that the
damage to the bike was there before it was shipped. The big
front sprocket has a bend in it severe enough to cause
interference with the chain when it is on the other sprocket.
Also the rear derailer is bent and the threads holding the
fastening bolt are stripped"

This first set of pictures shows the bike as I shipped it:





This set was sent by the buyer:



And here is a video that he made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F7598i07Io

cudak888 

#1: Was that RD mounted to the dropout when shipped? If not, where was it?

#2: The pulley cage seems to be entirely disconnected from the pivot bolt - is this where he claims the threads are stripped?

#3: The chainring damage in the YouTube video looks as if it sustained an impact from the bottom of the box. Was the bike shipped with the crankset and rear wheel mounted? When fit in the box, was the chainring height higher then that of the front dropouts?

The before photos obviously show that the chainrings were not damaged before shipping, so it can already be assumed that the bike had a rough ride to its destination (and provided it was packed well, this would be the carrier's fault).

As for the RD, I'd like to see better photos showing whether the hanger is bent or not. Damage to the pulley cage generally equals damage to the parallelogram body, which I do not see.

-Kurt

ilikebikes

what cudak888 mentioned, and I'll add this, are your being truthful about the bike being in tip top? was it packed correctly? if so I'd tell him to contact UPS, if he doesn't want to contact them well thats on him, or you can pay the guy and loose out, (if it wasn't your fault) it's up to you.

cudak888 

Overly subjective questions, ILB.

"Packed correctly," in my book, involves removal of the RD from the dropout. Others leave them on, and consider it "packed correctly." Shipping with both wheels on either side of the frame (as opposed to the rear installed at the back is often considered "packed correctly," though I, personally, disagree in that respect.

-Kurt

randyjawa 

With over five hundred bicycles shipped world wide, I have seen three situations of damage occurring due to shipping carelessness. I pack my bikes really well but sometimes damage does occur.

Instance one, a damaged set of stays on an early eighties Basso Gap. Took me, the buyer and finally one decent employee from the shipping company to make good for the repairs.

Instance two was a bent drive side drop(pressed steel and my fault for not bracing the rear drops) and a soaked suede saddle. The company claimed the damage occurred due to flap glue failure. BS, to say the least and the guy or gal who made that claim should have been disciplined for being careless, dishonest and stupid. It was obvious that the container had been miserably mishandled. I filed a claim with FedEx and never did get a second of satisfaction from that huge company. I did however get the frame set back from FedEx and I sent the lady who bought the frame set a complete bicycle modified to her Single Speed specifications(see pic or replacement bicycle before modification). She could not believe that anyone would do something like that, let alone a strange.

Instance #3 was a dented top tube in a lovely old and near mint Italian bike from the early eighties. The buyer claimed the frame was dented. I sent him pictures of the area of concern to demonstrate that there was no damage when the bicycle was shipped. I opened a claim with FedEx Ground after the buyer showed the damage to a FedEx field rep. FedEx did not go good for the claim and the buyer never did get back to me. Perhaps it was a scam to get a seller(me) to refund some of the money the fellow paid for the bike. I honestly do not know but I do know that the bicycle was in great shape and there is little chance that the dent could have occurred without some sort of external damage to the box.

Advise your customers to take pictures of the shipping container before opening it if there is any evidence of rough handling. Continue taking pictures as the bike get unpacked. This is the best way to ensure that your butt(as both a seller and a buyer) is covered even if the big boys won't stand behind their service when their employees screw things up.

SekineSHC271_56_FullSide.jpg

TejanoTrackie 

Agree 100%. I have a special air travel bag for my bike which places both wheels in separate pockets alongside the frame and then supports the fork and rear dropouts, such that the large chainring and rear derailleur cage are raised above the bottom of the bag, which has a hard bottom. I have taken a dozen trips without ever suffering any damage.

DMF 

Have you dealt with UPS insurance before? It's completely seller-driven. You have to contact UPS and file a claim. All the buyer has to do is make the shipping container and shipped item available for inspection by UPS. If the insurance pays, it pays you, not the buyer. You are entirely responsible for making the buyer whole.

OTOH, it's not like the buyer didn't notice the bent parts long before he finished (or even started) assembling it. And if he's destroyed or discarded the packing, he's actively prevented UPS from determining whether they were at fault.

Btw, I tend to believe that UPS did the damage. You wouldn't believe what they've done to some packages I've received. All they have to so is slam the box on the drive side and the RD is bent. (Unless there's a guard, it's a good idea to remove the RD from the hanger and tie it to a tube.) But, it's hard to imagine it bending outward like that. I'd suspect that he got the bike hung up somehow when taking it out of the box.

DMF 

Boring video.

But why isn't he taking pictures of the shipping box?

miamijim

I'll vehemently disagree that 'proper packaging' involves removal of the rear derailleur. I worked in a shop for 12 years and dont ever recall 1 bike being shipped to us with the RD removed. Thats somewhere around 6,000 bikes.

Its the sellers responsibilty to contact the shipping company, not the buyers. Without the box etc, the shipping company is going to say, "oh well, deal with it." To be very honest I'm going to say the RD was damaged in shipping while the chainring was not. Chainrings sit in a void in the box, its virtualy impossible for a ring to bent like that, I think someone dropped the bike once it was removed from the box.

Here's what I would do:

1. Offer a 100% refund, buyer pays return shipping. If he refuses:
2. Offer a $20 credit, thats all that RD is worth on a good day. If he refuses:
3. Tell him to deal with it. I'll venture a guess and say his default return period has expired.

cudak888 

It isn't bent outwards. It's loose on the pivot bolt and will point in any direction, if you push it with your finger.

-Kurt

randyjawa 

i have shipped roughly five hundred bicycles and experienced three damage claims. I try to ship with the rear wheel on, front removed, forks braced and turned backwards. The rear derailleur is shifted to the biggest cog and then protected with a proper guard which can be had from just about any local bike shop for nothing. Appropriate tubes and fork blades are padded with thick cardboard and tie wrapped tightly into place. Additional padding is employed at strategic locations. Everything is lashed together inside the box so that the entire shipment moves as a single unit. Then the box is cut down to fit the packed bike so and then padded so that nothing moves at all.

Again, over 500 bikes and only three damaged claims, only one of which might have been legit. And to verify the positive results of my packing efforts, you might want to take a look at my feedback on Ebay. Many people actually comment positively on the packing job that I do.

All that said, it takes me about three hours to properly pack up a bicycle, in case anyone is interested.

embankmentlb

Oh that's a tuff problem to solve. I would say the bike was dropped in shipping. What is the plan to make the buyer happy?

phoebeisis

1)He waited 2 freakin' weeks to pick it up
2) He is calling you a thief-
3)And he refuses to help you make the claim to UPS.He has to present them with the box/bike to photograph etc.You-the shipper- actually have to make the claim,I think.

Don't give him anything- he needs to help you make the claim to UPS.MIGHT BE TOUGH TO MAKE THE CLAIM SINCE HE WAITED 2 WEEKS!! This is probably why he doesn't want to push UPS-the bike was out of their control for 2 weeks-why should they pay.
He screwed up by waiting 2 weeks to pick it up., and he wants you to pay for it.


Bid aside-when I used to ship expensive-$500 and above-frames and bikes-I finally started building hard boxes with cheap paneling(Home Depot $8 for 4x8 panels) and 2x2".It took hours-maybe 4 hours-to build a crate and pack it-lotta work.
Good luck
Charlie

embankmentlb

I think those are legitimate options. More than once i have run into ebayers who basically like the item they received yet ask for a part refund. In this case, the buyer ether likes what he has plus $20 or deals with UPS. or can ship it back.

socalrider

The big question is how much does he want from you to feel properly compensated.. I have had these problems before selling golf clubs and the person refusing to send it back will have an inflated sense that he is correct and demand an outrageous sum to the total value of the item.. The fact that he went through the trouble of making a youtube video means his estimate of damage will be over the top, just my 2cents..

If what he asks for is less than shipping the bike back, pay him and be done with it..

cudak888 

On another note - if the RD pivot and the chainring are all that's damaged, I'd be quite curious to see what his reaction would be if you offered to replace the damaged 122bcd ring and the Victory S3 pivot (providing you had both).

P.S.: Royally stupid accusation, on his part. Why should anyone knowingly selling a damaged bike pack it well?

Probably because he needs to get himself some decent lighting


-Kurt

ilikebikes

Ahhhh, now I know.

ilikebikes

Point taken. ;0)

xtrajack

I used to work at a freight shipping company.I was hired to load trucks. I liked the job. When I came in at night I would be given a list, I was supposed to find everything on the list and put it on a truck. Like a big treasure hunt every night.
When I was hired by the outfit, I was told that I could put a forklift tine through a big screen TV and there wouldn't be any issues.

I was also told that if I damaged a pack of cigarettes or a bottle of alcohol I would get fired. As a matter of fact, there was only one person on our shift who was authorized to handle either one. SOP was that any time someone had cigarettes or alcohol on their list then they were supposed to go get the guy authorized to handle those items, and have him load them on the truck.

The point I am trying to make is that there is a very real possibility that the carrier may not have handled the package with kid gloves. Hell, they may not have even handled it gently.

markk900

Hey, moses: looks like your buddy is flipping the bike.....its on Toronto craigslist pointing back to your original ebay listing.....

https://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/bik/1493653415.html

Guess it isn't that bad is it!

Mark

cudak888 

^
Buyer owned.

-Kurt

YoKev

hahahahaha

BobHufford

My son works for a large US based Parcel Service transferring packages to and from their cargo planes. He says that the company's stamp of approval is a boot mark ... and this especially goes for large/heavy packages or those marked "fragile".

A few years back a seller and I were able to get $100 out of UPS for a damaged mid-60s Schwinn Panther. It was poorly packed with loose parts denting the tank and fenders and one pedal escaped out of the big hole in the side of the box. Thank goodness I only paid $30 for the bike (this was years ago when Yahoo had auctions). I was suprised that UPS settled as the packing was bad.

The damaged chainring on the OP's bike looks like what could happen if the rings are sitting on or very near the bottom of the box and it takes a hard hit there. I always zip-tie the frame to a full sized cardboard insert to keep the rings up from bottom of the box and put a block of styrofoam under there to soften the blow (also zip-tying the crankarm to the chainstay). Your best efforts can still result in damage. The only problem I've had in shipping was a broken spoke (rear wheel still in frame). Knock on wood ...

Since the buyer was so slow to make this claim and is not willing to work with you and the shipper, I would not be offering anything to compensate them. Are they holding your eBay rating hostage?

Best of luck,

Bob

reddDesign

hahaha...make sure you print out the craigslist ad, make a pdf, and shove it in his face. if he tries to get the money from you, demand he ship the bike first...kinda hard to do that if someone already bought it. he's just trying to make a buck, i hope he sells it to someone who deserves it.

Not only that, but he's using your pictures, as well as not describing the 'damage' that he claims.

EjustE

+1. Heck... NEW bikes come to bike stores to be assembled with the RDs on

+1 The seller is the one who has a contact with the shipping company, not the buyer. There is no way a buyer can retrieve any funds for goods damaged in shipping...

And I am not going to venture into forensics here, because all it is, is the seller's word vs. the buyers' word
Selling whole bikes on ebay is a hustle. Crap like this comes with the territory...