DOS

I know from searching BF that the whole issue of Superbe Pro BB spindle taper and length has been discussed a number of times before. But I haven't found that any of the threads end in resolution so am looking for help confirming some conclusions I have drawn.

I am currently running a set of 1985 Superbe Pro road double cranks on my 1986 Schwinn Paramount. I have been using a 1980s Campy GS BB because Sheldon Brown site said to use Campy, although his site says spindle length should be 111mm, while mine is 114.5 (more on length below). Sheldon says that Suntour used its own funky taper but that Campy's ISO taper was close enough and would work (it has for me). However, I came across attached recently, which seems to indicate that Suntour BBs prior to 1987 or so used ISO, while later models used J.I.S. No indication of a funky Suntour proprietary taper. Any infor to confirm or contradict this conclusion would be welcome.

https://velobase.com/ListComponents.a...oupBy=Category

As to spindle length, which is really the more pressing issue, I wound up using the 114.5mm despite Sheldon site saying to use 111mm because I happened to find one cheap on ebay when I was building the bike; I figured I wouldn't notice a couple of extra millimeters. Well, I haven't noticed the extra mms, but I have always figured at some point I'd track down a Superbe Pro BB to match with the cranks. However, I have seen two spindle lengths -- 109mm and 113mm -- attributed to Superbe Pro Road cranks so have been unsure which to get. However. I came across some old catalogs online that seem to indicate that design change in 1987 (accushift year) explains the two lengths.

This 1982 Catalog -- https://www.yellowjersey.org/stour82a.html -- says 113mm

This 1987 Catalog -- https://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=12903 -- says 109mm.

In looking at the clearance I have between my cranks and the chain stay using a 114.5 spindle, I don't think there is anyway I could go as low as 109mm without the crank hitting the stay. So I am thinking that in 1985 Suntour was still using 113mm spindle for Superbe Pro and that the 109mm spec came in 1987 with accushift design changes.

So, to some up, I am concluding that my 1985 cranks have an ISO taper, not some funky Suntour specific taper, and that the correct spindle length would be 113mm. I would welcome any info to contradict my conclusions before I start shopping for a superbe pro BB with a 113mm spindle.

Thanks

Ex Pres 

Just to add to the "clear as mud" taper conversation, Campy taper pre'94 is not ISO, and so your GS Campy taper is supposedly the same as the older Suntour taper spec'd for Superbe. The later 109mm is probably JIS, and [my guess] just the change in taper would account for the very little change in chainline if you stuck your crankset on both.

caloso

I cannot contradict this. I have been using a 111 mm Campy spindle on my Superbe Pro crankset. For what it's worth, this spindle gives a perfect 42mm chainline with a single chainring mounted on the inside position.

DOS

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Calos's mention of 42mm chainline got me thinking about my current chainline with my 114.5mm spindle; which I had never actually measured, assuming it would be off by just a bit. Well it turns out, with my 114.5 campy spindle, my chainline on a road double measured to the point between the rings is coming out pretty much spot on 43 or 43.5mm (I dont have tools to get down to .5mm measurement). I get basically same chainline measurement off the center of my 7 speed freewheel (126mm spacing). So my chainline is not in fact off by a couple of mms but spot on as far as I can tell. So how to explain this? I have a theory that contradicts my previously stated theory that 85 Superbe Pro used ISO taper, not some funky Suntour version. But Bob barker has already argued that my earlier theory was flawed so what the hell.

I now believe the Suntour taper may be slightly different than ISO and JIS, and in fact somehwere in between (shorter and blunter than ISO but not as short and blunt as JIS). Here is why.

-- All docs I have seen say 90s Superbe Road cranks used 109mm Superbe BB or 111 campy (Sheldon site says 111mm with specifically 90s vinatge Superbe). So 111 Campy=109 Superbe, suggesting that on a Superbe spindle a Superbe crank would not seat as far inward as it would on Campy, thereby achieving correct chainline on both.

-- All docs I have show that 80s Superbe use 113mm superbe spindle and my experience shows more or less correct chainline on 114.5 spindle (given that I lack tools, as noted above, to make precise .5mm measurement, lets round up to 115mm for sake of argument). So in 80s 115mm campy = 113mm Superbe, again suggesting that the crank would seat a bit farther inward on a Campy crank than it would on a Superbe in order to achieve correct chainline on both.

I suppose I'll just have to get a 113mm Superbe Pro BBto check my theory. How's that for a big rationalization for buying a component that chainline measurements show I don't really need?

3sss

Why hasn't anyone just got some vernier calipers and taken some measurements? BTW is the taper on cyclone BB's the same as Superbe Pro?

DOS

[QUOTE=3sss;10328812]Why hasn't anyone just got some vernier calipers and taken some measurements? QUOTE]

I wondered about that too. As often as I have seen the theory that Suntour taper was different, I have not found any actual numbers to confirm. Nor have I been intersted enough to acquire the tool I would need to measure myself.

Ex Pres 

I didn't have a Superbe spindle on me to make the measurements, but I have done some experimentation with a pre '94 Campy, an ISO (>'94 Campy) spindle, and a JIS (Shimano) spindles. I measured the q-factor on each spindle using a known ISO crankset. The q-factor for the ISO spindle was 3mm less than for the pre'94 Campy, which was also 3mm less than for the JIS, so a total spread of 6mm just due to taper shape. I did not have a JIS crank available to test at the time.

Now remember for chainline differences you would be dividing these differences in half. And you also need to take into consideration assymetry, as many pre-cartridge spindles were offset to the driveside by anywhere from 2 to 5mm.

See, clear as mud.

I think VeloBase needs to take on and expand Sheldon's BB database. There's much left to be refined. What say you, Jon?

DOS

After periodic searches and ebay trolling since I originally posted this thread, I have long last laid my hands on. 113mm superbe pro spindle, which I am fully confident is the correct length to match with my mid 80s superbe pro road double crankset. Alas, I failed to realize that the spindle would not work with my campy cups, which are the thin cup version. Since Superbe pro BBs with 109 spindle are more commonly available than 113 version, I am thinking Ill just buy one for the cups but thought l'd check here to make sure th cup design of shorter spindle version would be same (English by the way). Alternatively I also have my eye out for campy thick cups, which I think will work since the center measurement of my spindle is same as campy spindles designed for use with thick cups.Confirmation of this theory also appreciated. Incidentally, near as I can tell the taper on my suntour spindle is same as the campy one I am replacing.