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-   -   For the love of English 3 speeds... (http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/623699-love-english-3-speeds.html)

buck mulligan 02-25-10 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AL NZ (Post 10451262)
A 1938 Sachs Torpedo Dreigang, not a SA, but here's how I did it

I only wish I had a dedicated work area to devote to the task. In the absence of such an area, I just strung all the tricky parts - the washers, spacers, nuts, cones, etc. - from each side of the mechanism onto a wire tied off at both ends. That way, I could throw everything into a plastic bag until I can get back to the project, and rest assured that all the parts will retain their correct order and orientation.

Sixty Fiver 02-25-10 05:26 PM

I have an SA SW hub that I need to refurbish... more out of interest than actually wanting to put it into regular use.

These were not produced for very long as they suffered from design flaws and were supposed to replace the AW... they were only fitted to bikes for a few years before the AW was put back into production.

I am sure many SW hubs were also replaced and then tossed out so they aren't that common.

The holy grail of three speeds would of course be the ASC which is a 3 speed fixed hub... Sun Race / Sturmey Archer has reintroduced this as the S3X which can also be run as a conventional 3 speed with the use of a single speed freewheel.

A friend of mine has a massive collection of SA hubs, shop manuals, and paraphanelia and every once in a while he parts with his spares... hoping that he finds that he has one too many ASC hubs at some point.

:)

buck mulligan 02-25-10 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 10451419)
I have an SA SW hub that I need to refurbish... more out of interest than actually wanting to put it into regular use.

These were not produced for very long as they suffered from design flaws and were supposed to replace the AW... they were only fitted to bikes for a few years before the AW was put back into production.

Didn't Sheldon Brown say that "AW" stands for "always works," and "SW" stands for "seldom works?"

Sixty Fiver 02-25-10 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buck mulligan (Post 10451486)
Didn't Sheldon Brown say that "AW" stands for "always works," and "SW" stands for "seldom works?"

It is quite possible... the SW was a troublesome hub in that they are beautiful when they work but are not as robust as the venerable AW which never seems to quit.

jamesj 02-25-10 06:15 PM

I think this thread is the Thread of the year!

Nothing but awesomeness in this thread!

bikamper 02-25-10 06:38 PM

Other than worn bearings and dryed 3n1 oil, I rarely find anything amiss in an AW hub. At least, until I came across this while rebuilding a friends hub.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21499296@N08/3430238106/
Other than a cable, the only breakdown I've ever had on one my own hubs was a split clutch slider on my first fixed AW after 600 miles. Replaced it and have almost 4000 trouble-free miles since then.
I use Mobil 1 0-40W to lube my AW, AM, FW and S5 hubs. A bit spendy, but required for Mrs. Bikampers car, so I keep an extra quart around.

Don't be shy about tearing into an AW, they aren't daunting and you won't learn anything if you don't make a few mistakes along the way.

noglider 02-25-10 08:13 PM

I agree. It's really great to read.

buck mulligan, I googled that and found this.

Sixty Fiver, what was good about the SW?

The 3-speed fixed gear sounds like fun. The new one is not available separately yet, is it? And I bet it's expensive.

old's'cool 02-25-10 08:39 PM

I've never been interested in owning/riding a planetary hub since for me the limited range/large steps and loss of efficiency compared to derailleurs are not acceptable compromises. That said, I find them fascinating technically. My dad was into overhauling them when I was a kid, and there were certainly many bikes around in the neighborhood with the ubiquitous SA three speed hub. I think several bikes in the family had that setup; my dad's, my mom's (not that either of them rode much) and maybe one of my sister's bikes at one point. But I went straight from a coaster brake to a 10 speed.
So, anyway, can you SA planetary hub geeks direct me to a site with detailed design info? I'd be interested to learn details about how the different ratios are effected (I've studied planetary gears in the past, and have a general understanding of the different ways they can be implemented - for instance, lepelletier gearsets; I've even fully overhauled a ZF 4HP18 automatic transmission; so I'm looking for really detailed info, not a general overview or how to.

JohnDThompson 02-25-10 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikamper (Post 10451681)
Other than worn bearings and dryed 3n1 oil, I rarely find anything amiss in an AW hub. At least, until I came across this while rebuilding a friends hub.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21499296@N08/3430238106/

I've seen bad planet gears before, but usually on newer (late 1970s) hubs, not a 1950s hub. The 1950s hubs were very well made but by late 70s cheapness had crept in and the innards were noticeably poorer construction than earlier units.

bikamper 02-25-10 09:49 PM

old's'cool-A lot of detailed technical info here.
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/gear.html

Won't argue the range or steps with you as far as 3 speed hubs are concerned, but don't believe what you hear about the inefficiency of hub gears. While you are perusing that link, click on the link for hubstripping.com. You might be surprised.

noglider 02-25-10 09:50 PM

I've seen worn pawls and clutches. These things do see wear, but overall, they are remarkably reliable.

bikamper 02-25-10 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnDThompson (Post 10452452)
I've seen bad planet gears before, but usually on newer (late 1970s) hubs, not a 1950s hub. The 1950s hubs were very well made but by late 70s cheapness had crept in and the innards were noticeably poorer construction than earlier units.

That was quite a surprise. Beautiful bike, too. Wish I had pics of it.

Chris_in_Miami 02-25-10 09:56 PM

My '63 Phillips will probably get replaced by my Super Course, but I'm enjoying it until then:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_TIeBxBH6dXI/S4...hillips_15.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_TIeBxBH6dXI/S4...hillips_14.jpg

gna 02-25-10 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 10452067)
I agree. It's really great to read.

buck mulligan, I googled that and found this.

Sixty Fiver, what was good about the SW?

The 3-speed fixed gear sounds like fun. The new one is not available separately yet, is it? And I bet it's expensive.

Here's an article on the SW on Sheldon Brown's site by Brian Hayes: http://sheldonbrown.com/sw.html
It sounds like a near miss--it coulda been a contender.

Oh, and Mark Stonich posts on here as MnHPVA Guy. Very nice man, very helpful, very knowledgeable. I tore apart my first AW hub using his tips and an old copy of Glenn's. It was fun, and I learned a lot.

Sixty Fiver 02-25-10 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by old's'cool (Post 10452178)
I've never been interested in owning/riding a planetary hub since for me the limited range/large steps and loss of efficiency compared to derailleurs are not acceptable compromises.

The SA AW is considered to be one of the most efficient drives of any type with a 97% efficiency... because of cross chaining and their susceptibility to contamination a derailer system can lose efficiency very quickly.

This only speaks to the drive's efficiency... a wider gearing range can make a rider more efficient even if the drive is not.

bikamper 02-25-10 10:02 PM

Chris-That fork crown on the Phillips looks similar to a Dunelt.

Chris_in_Miami 02-25-10 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikamper (Post 10452541)
Chris-That fork crown on the Phillips looks similar to a Dunelt.

Yep, I've seen them on a few Rudges also.

MnHPVA Guy 02-25-10 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noglider (Post 10452067)
The 3-speed fixed gear sounds like fun.

Yes they are fun. In fact the word "fun" seems wholly inadequate.

Quote:

The new one is not available separately yet, is it?
Your local bike shop can order you one through United Bicycle Supply. I've had mine for 3 weeks now. If your LBS isn't interested in ordering one you can get one through Bike Tools Etc

Quote:

And I bet it's expensive.
Nope. MSRP for hub kit with shifter is $225 or less than 1/2 what you would pay for an old ACS w/o a shifter. I think it's safe to assume the new one is much tougher. I had thought I'd prefer the ACS' tighter ratios. But now that I have some miles on the S3X I like the ratios.

Sixty Fiver 02-25-10 10:34 PM

I also like the decision that Sun Race made when they decided to give the S3X a wider range as it makes it pretty versatile... have been trying to find out what range of cogs they are offering as these are not interchangeable with anything.

I would not be happy using a 12 or 13 tooth cog unless it was on my folder... ;)

old's'cool 02-25-10 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 10452536)
The SA AW is considered to be one of the most efficient drives of any type with a 97% efficiency... because of cross chaining and their susceptibility to contamination a derailer system can lose efficiency very quickly.

This only speaks to the drive's efficiency... a wider gearing range can make a rider more efficient even if the drive is not.

Yeah, I figured that would draw some controversy. Needless to say, I am not one to cross-chain or let my chain & sprockets get appreciably contaminated. If I remember my mechanical engineering classes, planetary gears losses (compared to a chain drive) come from sliding action of gears (i.e. when not in direct drive) plus the multiplicity of gears.
bikcamper, great link!, I really enjoyed the tech article by Jim Gill.:thumb:

benajah 02-25-10 11:36 PM

Beautiful bikes. One thing I miss on BF because I don't look at the vintage section much is just old fashioned, solid, reliable bikes. Nobody made this work in the 20th century quite like the British did. Perhaps the Italians perfected the racing bike, but the British perfected the everyday bike.

MnHPVA Guy 02-25-10 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 10452678)
I also like the decision that Sun Race made when they decided to give the S3X a wider range as it makes it pretty versatile... have been trying to find out what range of cogs they are offering as these are not interchangeable with anything.

I would not be happy using a 12 or 13 tooth cog unless it was on my folder... ;)

3/32"are available in 12 and 13. 1/8" are available in 12 through 18t. Cogs are inexpensive.

I got 16, 17 and 18t. Currently running 46/17 on the left side of the bike with 145mm cranks.

I think the splines are the same as Shimano Cassette cogs.

Sixty Fiver 02-25-10 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MnHPVA Guy (Post 10452914)
3/32"are available in 12 and 13. 1/8" are available in 12 through 18t. Cogs are inexpensive.

I got 16, 17 and 18t. Currently running 46/17 on the left side of the bike with 145mm cranks.

I think the splines are the same as Shimano Cassette cogs.

The new S3x uses a 9 spline pattern (like Shimano cassettes) but have been told it is not compatible with Shimano cassette cogs... thinking that it might use 9 identical splines like the old Uniglide.

I will have to look up those cog specs although one would not want to run a ramped cog with shorter teeth on a fixed drive anyways.

rhm 02-26-10 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 10452536)
The SA AW is considered to be one of the most efficient drives of any type with a 97% efficiency... because of cross chaining and their susceptibility to contamination a derailer system can lose efficiency very quickly.

This only speaks to the drive's efficiency... a wider gearing range can make a rider more efficient even if the drive is not.

The new Sturmey Archer 5 speed wide range hub has the same ratios as the AW plus a super low and a super high. The gearing is:
1 ----0.62
2-----0.75
3-----1.00
4-----1.33
5-----1.60

I've ridden this about seven miles so far, so I'm not going to present myself as an exert yet! But my initial reaction is that the gears are too far apart. That is, I really miss the close ratios of my Sturmey Archer 8 speed hubs. I'm sure I'll get used to it, though. Photos to follow!

MnHPVA Guy 02-26-10 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 10452946)
The new S3x uses a 9 spline pattern (like Shimano cassettes) but have been told it is not compatible with Shimano cassette cogs... thinking that it might use 9 identical splines like the old Uniglide.

I just checked. You have been misinformed.

Quote:

I will have to look up those cog specs although one would not want to run a ramped cog with shorter teeth on a fixed drive anyways.
The advantage is that you can use some of the higher quality cogs, such as Surly, that are designed for SS conversions on cassette hubs. And of course the SA cogs could be used as a lower cost option for SS/Cassette conversions.

I'm fairly certain that Shimano BMX cogs are also compatible. These appear to be the same quality as the Sturmeys but may be more readily available in your area.


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