A Campagnolo FD that's unique, as in hyper-rare!
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,213
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
A Campagnolo FD that's unique, as in hyper-rare!
Velobase s my all-time favorite resource, being the vintage freak that I am.
I go to look up the listing for Campy Victory FD's and I notice something's very wrong! All the FD's pictured are not the Victory that I knew in 1985, when I bought two sets.
They all have the shape of the Croce D'Aune. Look in the catalogs from '85 and only the Triple FD is correct. Seems that Campy was playing with the Triomphe shape in the Victory line and, low and behold, I've got proof!
On Velobase, I found under the heading 'Triomphe' what is obviously a Victory 'FD'. Why?
Triomphe had no holes for weight relief. Ever. Here's the listing:
https://velobase.com/ViewSingleCompon...=113&AbsPos=29
It's got a biggun hole. Now, notice the twopiece clamp? All the FD's shared it, minus the C-Record, which had an elegant three piece assembly everybody wants nowadddays.
A couple down, we get to the 'Victory' FD, but this has the chauffeured sided frontice plate of the CDA and, from buying these way back when, I can tell you, with surety, that this is not '84 through '86 Victory.
Here's one of the FD's I bought in '85 (It arrived BN in a box that without question, said Victory):
<a href="https://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/?action=view¤t=CampyVictoryFDfrtop.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="https://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/CampyVictoryFDfrtop.jpg" border="0" alt="Campagnolo Victory trip clamp 28.6mm"></a>
Here's the FD currently on Ebay, described as Triomphe:
<a href="https://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/?action=view¤t=VictoryFDintwopiecethewayitssuppose.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="https://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/VictoryFDintwopiecethewayitssuppose.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
Notice the two piece clamp? Standard on everything but C-Record at the time!
First, it shares the frontal body style of Triomphe FD's. Notice the clamp though? It's a three pice! Ala C-Record, minus the engraved shield. Would Campagnolo have ever put this on their bottom of the line Triomphe FD? I truly doubt it!
Here's the three piece from the top:
<a href="https://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/?action=view¤t=CampagnoloVictoryFDtopdown.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="https://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/CampagnoloVictoryFDtopdown.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
I go to look up the listing for Campy Victory FD's and I notice something's very wrong! All the FD's pictured are not the Victory that I knew in 1985, when I bought two sets.
They all have the shape of the Croce D'Aune. Look in the catalogs from '85 and only the Triple FD is correct. Seems that Campy was playing with the Triomphe shape in the Victory line and, low and behold, I've got proof!
On Velobase, I found under the heading 'Triomphe' what is obviously a Victory 'FD'. Why?
Triomphe had no holes for weight relief. Ever. Here's the listing:
https://velobase.com/ViewSingleCompon...=113&AbsPos=29
It's got a biggun hole. Now, notice the twopiece clamp? All the FD's shared it, minus the C-Record, which had an elegant three piece assembly everybody wants nowadddays.
A couple down, we get to the 'Victory' FD, but this has the chauffeured sided frontice plate of the CDA and, from buying these way back when, I can tell you, with surety, that this is not '84 through '86 Victory.
Here's one of the FD's I bought in '85 (It arrived BN in a box that without question, said Victory):
<a href="https://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/?action=view¤t=CampyVictoryFDfrtop.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="https://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/CampyVictoryFDfrtop.jpg" border="0" alt="Campagnolo Victory trip clamp 28.6mm"></a>
Here's the FD currently on Ebay, described as Triomphe:
<a href="https://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/?action=view¤t=VictoryFDintwopiecethewayitssuppose.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="https://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/VictoryFDintwopiecethewayitssuppose.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
Notice the two piece clamp? Standard on everything but C-Record at the time!
First, it shares the frontal body style of Triomphe FD's. Notice the clamp though? It's a three pice! Ala C-Record, minus the engraved shield. Would Campagnolo have ever put this on their bottom of the line Triomphe FD? I truly doubt it!
Here's the three piece from the top:
<a href="https://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/?action=view¤t=CampagnoloVictoryFDtopdown.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="https://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/CampagnoloVictoryFDtopdown.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
#3
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,390 Times
in
2,092 Posts
Hold up there.
First off, I assume the dead link, CampyVictoryFDfrtop.jpg, is supposed to be CampyVictoryFDfrtop-1.jpg (shown below).
Second of all, Victory came with the double-hinged, three-piece clamp as well ("notice the twopiece clamp? All the FD's shared it, minus the C-Record"), though it seems as if you do reference this properly later, I assume this is an unintended error on your part.
That said, I do not understand which FD is being called out as unique here, neither which group you're saying it comes from. All the photos you've referenced are normal:
In the order you referenced them:
Velobase's Triomphe, evidently a completely normal Triomphe FD - single pivot, sharp edges:
Velobase's Victory, also representative of an ordinary Victory FD with double hinge and radiussed front body:
The Victory FD you bought in 1985 as Victory - complete with double hinge, and apparently identical to the Velobase example (CampyVictoryFDfrtop-1.jpg):
The Triomphe FD from eBay which - again - is identical to the Velobase entry; single hinge, sharp corners:
And, once again, your purchased-new 1985 Victory FD, proving once again that it has two hinge pivots. This photo also gives us a slightly better (not by much, but enough) look at the radiussed edge at the front of the derailer body:
I don't see the slightest thing unusual between any of these, and according to your description of each FD shown here, there's nothing out of the ordinary relating to them.
-Kurt
First off, I assume the dead link, CampyVictoryFDfrtop.jpg, is supposed to be CampyVictoryFDfrtop-1.jpg (shown below).
Second of all, Victory came with the double-hinged, three-piece clamp as well ("notice the twopiece clamp? All the FD's shared it, minus the C-Record"), though it seems as if you do reference this properly later, I assume this is an unintended error on your part.
That said, I do not understand which FD is being called out as unique here, neither which group you're saying it comes from. All the photos you've referenced are normal:
In the order you referenced them:
Velobase's Triomphe, evidently a completely normal Triomphe FD - single pivot, sharp edges:
Velobase's Victory, also representative of an ordinary Victory FD with double hinge and radiussed front body:
The Victory FD you bought in 1985 as Victory - complete with double hinge, and apparently identical to the Velobase example (CampyVictoryFDfrtop-1.jpg):
The Triomphe FD from eBay which - again - is identical to the Velobase entry; single hinge, sharp corners:
And, once again, your purchased-new 1985 Victory FD, proving once again that it has two hinge pivots. This photo also gives us a slightly better (not by much, but enough) look at the radiussed edge at the front of the derailer body:
I don't see the slightest thing unusual between any of these, and according to your description of each FD shown here, there's nothing out of the ordinary relating to them.
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 05-08-10 at 12:13 AM.
#4
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,213
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Oh pssshaw!
The Velobase Victory, with "radiused edges' as you say, aint the one that's listed there. At least not as I find it in the component search. Better proof comes in the photos you've posted which show the sharp/flat frontice piece of the Triomphe FD and not the chamferred, supposed Victory version. What I'm showing, with photographic evidence, is the same as what you're showing - and that's true! Flat piece on the front and a dual hinge describes the Victory FD (correct?).
What Velobase is showing is Victory as a chamferred edged single hinge FD(with the exception of the 'LX', which shares the Triomphe flat frontice piece but still shows the single hinge plate (ala Big Dog's' auction'.
The Velobase Victory, with "radiused edges' as you say, aint the one that's listed there. At least not as I find it in the component search. Better proof comes in the photos you've posted which show the sharp/flat frontice piece of the Triomphe FD and not the chamferred, supposed Victory version. What I'm showing, with photographic evidence, is the same as what you're showing - and that's true! Flat piece on the front and a dual hinge describes the Victory FD (correct?).
What Velobase is showing is Victory as a chamferred edged single hinge FD(with the exception of the 'LX', which shares the Triomphe flat frontice piece but still shows the single hinge plate (ala Big Dog's' auction'.
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,213
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Velobase Victory... Ain't Victory (at least by 84- 85):
https://velobase.com/CompImages/FDera...7FCF10420.jpeg
https://velobase.com/CompImages/FDera...7FCF10420.jpeg
#6
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,390 Times
in
2,092 Posts
https://velobase.com/ViewSingleCompon...df6b9&Enum=113
Better proof comes in the photos you've posted which show the sharp/flat frontice piece of the Triomphe FD and not the chamferred, supposed Victory version. What I'm showing, with photographic evidence, is the same as what you're showing - and that's true! Flat piece on the front and a dual hinge describes the Victory FD (correct?).
Flat piece on front and single hinge = Triomphe.
However, a radiussed body with a single hinge, or a dual hinge with a flat body would raise my eyebrows - but I haven't seen one yet.
-Kurt
#7
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,390 Times
in
2,092 Posts
Velobase Victory... Ain't Victory (at least by 84- 85):
https://velobase.com/CompImages/FDera...7FCF10420.jpeg
https://velobase.com/CompImages/FDera...7FCF10420.jpeg
I'll have a photo of the real McCoy here in a second.
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 05-06-10 at 09:11 PM.
#9
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,390 Times
in
2,092 Posts
#11
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,390 Times
in
2,092 Posts
Triomphe has no gradual transition at this area:
-Kurt
#12
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,213
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Got that. Still does not settle the issue of chamferred edges on the frontice piece, as shown on Velobase and labeled Victory. That's where my post came from and that's why I'm miffed. You're kinda-sorta pretending that I had no basis to post this and facts are facts: The photo on Velobase was *not Victory*, which led me to believe i had something unique.
#13
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,390 Times
in
2,092 Posts
Well, quite simply, that isn't Victory.
No offense was intended.
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 05-06-10 at 10:26 PM.
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 16,874
Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1856 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times
in
506 Posts
This is a new thread - how can (and why did) images get deleted already, such as in Kurt's Post #3?
#15
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,390 Times
in
2,092 Posts
#16
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,213
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
I just moved the photos into a different album. I'll repair the links later on tonight.
Kurt, No hard feelings. I'm just defending what I know and how I research it. When the reference bible is wrong, it seems to me that it's hard to blame the researchee for a glaring error and I was so sure I'd found something unique... The let-down just hurts a bit.
Kurt, No hard feelings. I'm just defending what I know and how I research it. When the reference bible is wrong, it seems to me that it's hard to blame the researchee for a glaring error and I was so sure I'd found something unique... The let-down just hurts a bit.
#17
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,390 Times
in
2,092 Posts
That said, I've taken up the habit of double-checking Velobase whenever I'm researching something, just to be sure. I do like Jon's image verification system though; hope it helps to keep the incorrect content to a minimum.
-Kurt
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,973
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times
in
22 Posts
Danny, please don't take this in the wrong way, but in industrial production, there are always going to be variations. Perhaps nowadays the changes are better tracked, but variations will nonetheless occur. You generally hope that they occur to improve the product, but generally they occur by error or as a manner to reduce costs. I therefore generally hope for things to be more standard as most "exceptions" end up being lesser...
The second thing is that Velobase is far from being infallible. If I had the time and inclination, I am certain that I could come up with many glitches, omissions and errors. It is however a fantastic resource and everybody should be super-thankful for its existence.
The second thing is that Velobase is far from being infallible. If I had the time and inclination, I am certain that I could come up with many glitches, omissions and errors. It is however a fantastic resource and everybody should be super-thankful for its existence.
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 16,874
Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1856 Post(s)
Liked 664 Times
in
506 Posts
I just moved the photos into a different album. I'll repair the links later on tonight.
Kurt, No hard feelings. I'm just defending what I know and how I research it. When the reference bible is wrong, it seems to me that it's hard to blame the researchee for a glaring error and I was so sure I'd found something unique... The let-down just hurts a bit.
Kurt, No hard feelings. I'm just defending what I know and how I research it. When the reference bible is wrong, it seems to me that it's hard to blame the researchee for a glaring error and I was so sure I'd found something unique... The let-down just hurts a bit.
But it's nowhere near as fun as VeloBase!
#20
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,390 Times
in
2,092 Posts
-Kurt
#21
Old fart
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,784
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3587 Post(s)
Liked 3,400 Times
in
1,934 Posts
FWIW, I have the original product specs for Triomphe and Victory here:
https://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/catalogs/triomphe.pdf
https://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/catalogs/victory.pdf
https://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/catalogs/triomphe.pdf
https://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/catalogs/victory.pdf
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,973
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times
in
22 Posts
Nobody has mentioned it yet, but are you aware that the Victory and Triomphe gruppi were only sold for for about 2 1/2 years before being replaced by teh Nuovo Victory and Nuovo Triomphe gruppi in late 1986. In the catalog that was brought out for the updated gruppi, they mention many of the changes that occurred between one version and teh other.
#23
sultan of schwinn
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Posts: 3,536
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times
in
9 Posts
Nobody has mentioned it yet, but are you aware that the Victory and Triomphe gruppi were only sold for for about 2 1/2 years before being replaced by teh Nuovo Victory and Nuovo Triomphe gruppi in late 1986. In the catalog that was brought out for the updated gruppi, they mention many of the changes that occurred between one version and teh other.
#24
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,213
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Kurt,
Somehow the deleted links seem to be in your post. Am I losing it? Anyhow, I can't edit your post so here's the full album to work from (It's 9 pics of various Victory stuff)
https://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o...olo%20Victory/
Citoyen Du Monde,
As I made clear in my original post, my love for Velobase is beyond healthy! It is *The* absolute best collective reference resource for bicycling minutiae ever compiled and I'm not sure I could live happily without it. It never occurred to me that there could be standing errors posted. Makes perfect sense though as it is akin to Wikipedia, with the user postings et al.
Did you ever find those Cinelli kids bars for me?
Somehow the deleted links seem to be in your post. Am I losing it? Anyhow, I can't edit your post so here's the full album to work from (It's 9 pics of various Victory stuff)
https://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o...olo%20Victory/
Citoyen Du Monde,
As I made clear in my original post, my love for Velobase is beyond healthy! It is *The* absolute best collective reference resource for bicycling minutiae ever compiled and I'm not sure I could live happily without it. It never occurred to me that there could be standing errors posted. Makes perfect sense though as it is akin to Wikipedia, with the user postings et al.
Did you ever find those Cinelli kids bars for me?