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Old 05-06-10, 07:01 PM   #1
dannyg1 
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A Campagnolo FD that's unique, as in hyper-rare!

Velobase s my all-time favorite resource, being the vintage freak that I am.

I go to look up the listing for Campy Victory FD's and I notice something's very wrong! All the FD's pictured are not the Victory that I knew in 1985, when I bought two sets.

They all have the shape of the Croce D'Aune. Look in the catalogs from '85 and only the Triple FD is correct. Seems that Campy was playing with the Triomphe shape in the Victory line and, low and behold, I've got proof!

On Velobase, I found under the heading 'Triomphe' what is obviously a Victory 'FD'. Why?

Triomphe had no holes for weight relief. Ever. Here's the listing:
http://velobase.com/ViewSingleCompon...=113&AbsPos=29

It's got a biggun hole. Now, notice the twopiece clamp? All the FD's shared it, minus the C-Record, which had an elegant three piece assembly everybody wants nowadddays.

A couple down, we get to the 'Victory' FD, but this has the chauffeured sided frontice plate of the CDA and, from buying these way back when, I can tell you, with surety, that this is not '84 through '86 Victory.

Here's one of the FD's I bought in '85 (It arrived BN in a box that without question, said Victory):
<a href="http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/?action=view&current=CampyVictoryFDfrtop.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/CampyVictoryFDfrtop.jpg" border="0" alt="Campagnolo Victory trip clamp 28.6mm"></a>

Here's the FD currently on Ebay, described as Triomphe:

<a href="http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/?action=view&current=VictoryFDintwopiecethewayitssuppose.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/VictoryFDintwopiecethewayitssuppose.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Notice the two piece clamp? Standard on everything but C-Record at the time!

First, it shares the frontal body style of Triomphe FD's. Notice the clamp though? It's a three pice! Ala C-Record, minus the engraved shield. Would Campagnolo have ever put this on their bottom of the line Triomphe FD? I truly doubt it!

Here's the three piece from the top:

<a href="http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/?action=view&current=CampagnoloVictoryFDtopdown.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/hpsworkshop/CampagnoloVictoryFDtopdown.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
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Old 05-06-10, 07:17 PM   #2
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Elementary, dear Watson!
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Old 05-06-10, 07:47 PM   #3
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Hold up there.

First off, I assume the dead link, CampyVictoryFDfrtop.jpg, is supposed to be CampyVictoryFDfrtop-1.jpg (shown below).

Second of all, Victory came with the double-hinged, three-piece clamp as well ("notice the twopiece clamp? All the FD's shared it, minus the C-Record"), though it seems as if you do reference this properly later, I assume this is an unintended error on your part.

That said, I do not understand which FD is being called out as unique here, neither which group you're saying it comes from. All the photos you've referenced are normal:

In the order you referenced them:

Velobase's Triomphe, evidently a completely normal Triomphe FD - single pivot, sharp edges:


Velobase's Victory, also representative of an ordinary Victory FD with double hinge and radiussed front body:



The Victory FD you bought in 1985 as Victory - complete with double hinge, and apparently identical to the Velobase example (CampyVictoryFDfrtop-1.jpg):


The Triomphe FD from eBay which - again - is identical to the Velobase entry; single hinge, sharp corners:


And, once again, your purchased-new 1985 Victory FD, proving once again that it has two hinge pivots. This photo also gives us a slightly better (not by much, but enough) look at the radiussed edge at the front of the derailer body:


I don't see the slightest thing unusual between any of these, and according to your description of each FD shown here, there's nothing out of the ordinary relating to them.

-Kurt
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Old 05-06-10, 08:54 PM   #4
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Oh pssshaw!

The Velobase Victory, with "radiused edges' as you say, aint the one that's listed there. At least not as I find it in the component search. Better proof comes in the photos you've posted which show the sharp/flat frontice piece of the Triomphe FD and not the chamferred, supposed Victory version. What I'm showing, with photographic evidence, is the same as what you're showing - and that's true! Flat piece on the front and a dual hinge describes the Victory FD (correct?).

What Velobase is showing is Victory as a chamferred edged single hinge FD(with the exception of the 'LX', which shares the Triomphe flat frontice piece but still shows the single hinge plate (ala Big Dog's' auction'.
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Old 05-06-10, 08:57 PM   #5
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Velobase Victory... Ain't Victory (at least by 84- 85):

http://velobase.com/CompImages/FDera...7FCF10420.jpeg
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Old 05-06-10, 09:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyg1 View Post
The Velobase Victory, with "radiused edges' as you say, aint the one that's listed there. At least not as I find it in the component search.
Those pictures are directly from the Velobase entry for the Victory front derailer:
http://velobase.com/ViewSingleCompon...df6b9&Enum=113

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyg1 View Post
Better proof comes in the photos you've posted which show the sharp/flat frontice piece of the Triomphe FD and not the chamferred, supposed Victory version. What I'm showing, with photographic evidence, is the same as what you're showing - and that's true! Flat piece on the front and a dual hinge describes the Victory FD (correct?).
Radiussed/chamfered/chauffeured body + dual pivot clamp = Victory.
Flat piece on front and single hinge = Triomphe.

However, a radiussed body with a single hinge, or a dual hinge with a flat body would raise my eyebrows - but I haven't seen one yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyg1 View Post
What Velobase is showing is Victory as a chamferred edged single hinge FD
As I said before, that would raise my eyebrows, and I still haven't seen evidence of one here, or at Velobase.

-Kurt
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Old 05-06-10, 09:01 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyg1 View Post
Velobase Victory... Ain't Victory (at least by 84- 85):

http://velobase.com/CompImages/FDera...7FCF10420.jpeg
Oh, you're referring to the braze-on version, specifically. Yes, that one isn't Victory, never was Victory, and it's not supposed to be there.

I'll have a photo of the real McCoy here in a second.

-Kurt
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Old 05-06-10, 09:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Are you referring specifically to the braze-on version pictured? If so, yes, that one is incorrect.

I'll have a photo of the real McCoy here in a second.

-Kurt
You admit then, that I'm correct, yet all the while try to prove me wrong? WTF Kurt?
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Old 05-06-10, 09:18 PM   #9
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Here's a real Victory braze-on FD:





-Kurt
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Old 05-06-10, 09:22 PM   #10
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I agree, that's Victory. Still though, please point out these 'chamferred edges' on the Braze on you just posted. Make's no sense to me.....
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Old 05-06-10, 09:31 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyg1 View Post
I agree, that's Victory. Still though, please point out these 'chamferred edges' on the Braze on you just posted. Make's no sense to me.....
This is the radiussed edge I refer to. It's on the clamp-on Victory FD's too:



Triomphe has no gradual transition at this area:



-Kurt
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Old 05-06-10, 09:46 PM   #12
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Got that. Still does not settle the issue of chamferred edges on the frontice piece, as shown on Velobase and labeled Victory. That's where my post came from and that's why I'm miffed. You're kinda-sorta pretending that I had no basis to post this and facts are facts: The photo on Velobase was *not Victory*, which led me to believe i had something unique.
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Old 05-06-10, 10:14 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by dannyg1 View Post
Got that. Still does not settle the issue of chamferred edges on the frontice piece, as shown on Velobase and labeled Victory.
You mean the rounded edges of the parallelogram arm on this FD?



Well, quite simply, that isn't Victory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyg1 View Post
That's where my post came from and that's why I'm miffed. You're kinda-sorta pretending that I had no basis to post this and facts are facts: The photo on Velobase was *not Victory*, which led me to believe i had something unique.
I don't see any reason for hard feelings. I'm not attacking you in any respect; its just that I don't see any out-of-the ordinary Victory FD, and I'm a bit confused as to details (hence this discussion of clarification).

No offense was intended.

-Kurt
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Old 05-07-10, 10:14 AM   #14
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This is a new thread - how can (and why did) images get deleted already, such as in Kurt's Post #3?
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Old 05-07-10, 10:23 AM   #15
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This is a new thread - how can (and why did) images get deleted already, such as in Kurt's Post #3?
Those were referenced from Danny's Photobucket account, I guess he removed them.

-Kurt
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Old 05-07-10, 01:50 PM   #16
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I just moved the photos into a different album. I'll repair the links later on tonight.

Kurt, No hard feelings. I'm just defending what I know and how I research it. When the reference bible is wrong, it seems to me that it's hard to blame the researchee for a glaring error and I was so sure I'd found something unique... The let-down just hurts a bit.
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Old 05-07-10, 03:38 PM   #17
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I just moved the photos into a different album. I'll repair the links later on tonight.
Ah, that explains it. I'll fix the image links when they go up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyg1 View Post
Kurt, No hard feelings. I'm just defending what I know and how I research it. When the reference bible is wrong, it seems to me that it's hard to blame the researchee for a glaring error and I was so sure I'd found something unique... The let-down just hurts a bit.
I know the feeling. Don't let it get you down.

That said, I've taken up the habit of double-checking Velobase whenever I'm researching something, just to be sure. I do like Jon's image verification system though; hope it helps to keep the incorrect content to a minimum.

-Kurt
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Old 05-07-10, 04:50 PM   #18
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Danny, please don't take this in the wrong way, but in industrial production, there are always going to be variations. Perhaps nowadays the changes are better tracked, but variations will nonetheless occur. You generally hope that they occur to improve the product, but generally they occur by error or as a manner to reduce costs. I therefore generally hope for things to be more standard as most "exceptions" end up being lesser...

The second thing is that Velobase is far from being infallible. If I had the time and inclination, I am certain that I could come up with many glitches, omissions and errors. It is however a fantastic resource and everybody should be super-thankful for its existence.
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Old 05-07-10, 06:37 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by dannyg1 View Post
I just moved the photos into a different album. I'll repair the links later on tonight.

Kurt, No hard feelings. I'm just defending what I know and how I research it. When the reference bible is wrong, it seems to me that it's hard to blame the researchee for a glaring error and I was so sure I'd found something unique... The let-down just hurts a bit.
You can get on the Campy site and look up historical technical data, after poking around a while. You should be able to find pix and exploded drawings of all these FD's and see what Campy named these various parts. They also are listed by year. That would be a good check of Velobase, and if you do find discrepancies, I'm sure we'd all be grateful for your inputs.

But it's nowhere near as fun as VeloBase!
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Old 05-07-10, 07:10 PM   #20
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You can get on the Campy site and look up historical technical data, after poking around a while.
At http://www.campagnolo.com? You must be kidding me. They hide it pretty well if they do - can you guide me to where this stuff is stashed away?

-Kurt
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Old 05-07-10, 08:45 PM   #21
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FWIW, I have the original product specs for Triomphe and Victory here:
http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/catalogs/triomphe.pdf
http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/catalogs/victory.pdf
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Old 05-07-10, 10:38 PM   #22
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Nobody has mentioned it yet, but are you aware that the Victory and Triomphe gruppi were only sold for for about 2 1/2 years before being replaced by teh Nuovo Victory and Nuovo Triomphe gruppi in late 1986. In the catalog that was brought out for the updated gruppi, they mention many of the changes that occurred between one version and teh other.
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Old 05-07-10, 10:49 PM   #23
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Nobody has mentioned it yet, but are you aware that the Victory and Triomphe gruppi were only sold for for about 2 1/2 years before being replaced by teh Nuovo Victory and Nuovo Triomphe gruppi in late 1986. In the catalog that was brought out for the updated gruppi, they mention many of the changes that occurred between one version and teh other.
+1 on that; and this might be the answer to the question/statement here... but I still have not seen a shot of the OPs FD, so this whole exercise is as academic as trying to find a needle in a haystack blindfolded
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Old 05-07-10, 11:19 PM   #24
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Kurt,

Somehow the deleted links seem to be in your post. Am I losing it? Anyhow, I can't edit your post so here's the full album to work from (It's 9 pics of various Victory stuff)

http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o...olo%20Victory/

Citoyen Du Monde,

As I made clear in my original post, my love for Velobase is beyond healthy! It is *The* absolute best collective reference resource for bicycling minutiae ever compiled and I'm not sure I could live happily without it. It never occurred to me that there could be standing errors posted. Makes perfect sense though as it is akin to Wikipedia, with the user postings et al.

Did you ever find those Cinelli kids bars for me?
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Old 05-07-10, 11:20 PM   #25
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My Victory FD:



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