une_vitesse

this frame came to me with nothing but an ill fitting headset and a bottom bracket. the fork and and the bb shell are french threaded and the seat tube OD is 28 mm.
and feeling inside the seat and down tubes reveals that they are pinned.
please don't mind the components, they didn't come with the frame.
can some one, anyone give me information about this frame? btw, this is "The Nugget" mentioned in my signature
thanks, in advance

unworthy1

hmmm, it's French...it has that crimped stay cap...and the Vagner fork crown...looks like it used to be green paint...what brand of DO is that? I'm going to have to guess something like Mercier or LeJeune, not a Gitane or Pug.

bobbycorno

Actually, based on the lugs, crown and seatstay tops, I was gonna say Gitane Super Corsa. Full 531 db and Campy ends. Not bad a tall.

SP
Bend, OR

une_vitesse

campy drops ft and rr. thanks!

une_vitesse

thanks for the suggestions. i suppose there are some lejeunes out there that have a crimped seat lug similar to the Nugget's.
also, if it helps, it seems to have had its rear brake cable stop removed. i think this pic shows the scar:

une_vitesse

i think unworthy nailed the fork...

unworthy1

well if there are signs of a brake cable arch being drewed off, I may have to revise my certainty that it's not a Gitane...but the forkcrown is not the typical one used on most TdF, nor are the stay-ends (which would have scallops, instead of domes). With Campy ends it would have to be a Gitane Super Corsa (as mentioned), rather than a TdF, but I'm not familiar enough with that model to say it is one for sure.
Did you find any serial number anywhere?
Check out the catalog scans on www.gitaneusa.com and see if you find a likely match.
Edit: took my own advice and based on what I can glean from the catalogs, it looks much more like an early '70s Gitane Super Corsa (or similar French-market-only model), and they all share one thing: chrome on the fork ends and rear triangle ends (what the Brits would call "socks"). So hats off to bobbycorno for the winning ID, and as he says: not shabby at all!

maym036

my guess on the first look is that it`s a Bertin

maym036

looks similar, now?
https://bertinclassiccycles.files.wor...ertin-ebay.jpg

John E

I presume the bottom bracket has either French or Swiss threading (35x1)?

EjustE

Not sure about that, unless the Super Corsa had a much different cluster than the TDF (this is a '69) pictured below:

unworthy1

according to gitaneusa,com, the Super Corsas did use that style of forkcrown that the OP's has (and that threw me off the Gitane scent, too), and there are examples of Gitanes that have the same crimped staycaps as the OPs. One thing about Gitane: they were not very consistent about details. I have personally seen at least 3 different seat stay treatments on TdF that were only a couple years apart...not to mention the variety of DOs used. When it come to Gitane, you have to allow for the unexpected.

une_vitesse

thank you all for your expertise. i've looked at the website unworthy1 suggests, and i gather that my baby's probably a super corsa. the only thing i can't figure out is if it did have a cable stop for the rear brake, then it was meant to be outfitted with MAFAC brakes. (the sc is "tout campagnolo", right?) i'm confused. probably like many gitane owners...

une_vitesse

french threads throughout ( bb: 35x1, both cups right hand thread)

unworthy1

the Super Corsa (and the similar ones for the FR market called "Olympian" or like that) looks like it was often "almost all-Campy": the brakes were often Mafac Racers with Campy NR as an option. I'd imagine that even if you went with the Campy option, the frame still came with the brake arch intended for CPs, cause that would be just like Gitane.

verktyg 

Hi, I have a collection of French bikes from the 60s through the early 90s: Gitanes, Bertins, Motobecanes and Peugeots... Is it wrong... or just French!

The bike is not a Gitane or a Bertin, least not after the late 60s. The things that scream French made are the Prugant Type "S" lugs, the flat top Wagner fork crown, the swagged seat stay tops and the Huret rear dropouts.

I would look for a bike with the EXACT match seat stay tops. Maybe a pre 1968 Gitane or pre 1970 Motobecane.

Chas. verktyg

une_vitesse

thanks, verktyg! the front and rear drops are campagnolo. does the fact that the frame is pinned give us any clues?

EjustE

I think that you should have a look at this thread...

verktyg 

Nice job -E...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/2826722...7624014562729/

The rear dropouts on the mystery bike look like they are Hurets.

Look at the wider area where the stop screw exits at the rear of the dropout. Huret and Simplex were the 2 main European dropout producers that used that feature. That type of Simplex dropout had their name forged into them. The screws just came out of the back side of Campy dropouts.

It's easy to tell by looking at the back side of the dropout. Check out the pictures in the link above. Also, Campy dropouts had the derailleur stop at 7:00 o'clock, Huret at 4:00 o'clock and no stop on the Simplex dropouts.

Note, many Simplex dropouts were modified to work with Campy style derailleurs. The 9mm holes were tapped out to M10x1 or M10x26TPI and the back of the "banjo" was cut away.

French bikes from that era often came with either Simplex or Huret dropouts depending on the brand of Derailleurs that were going to be used on the bike. In the mid 70s Shimano's better quality derailleurs could be used on Huret dropouts and Simplex with some minor modifications.

French bikes also frequently used different brand fork ends from the dropouts.

As I mentioned above, find the exact same seat stay tops and that's like the brand of bike.

Chas. verktyg

une_vitesse

why? the crimped seat stays look similar but not the same; the brake bridge is slightly different. also - i may be biased - but i think the lug work on my bike is slightly higher grade. finally, my bike has campagnolo dropouts, front and rear.
thanks, but i'm quite sure the rear dropouts are campagnolo. they're stamped. i'm searching for good pictures of different gitanes super corsa (which, according to gitane-usa.com, were spec'd with campy NR - hence the campy dropouts), in hopes that i'll find a match. do you have any suggestions as to where i might find such pictures? maybe you might have something close in your collection...

une_vitesse

none anywhere on the bike.

verktyg 

Did you check out the pictures in my link and look at the inner side of the derailleur hanger on your bike?

I enlarged your rear dropout picture in Photoshop and there's what looks like a "P" behind the QR on the dropout. The big thing is it has the enlarged boss where the stop screw exits the rear of the dropout. That was a feature of some Huret and Simplex dropouts but not on most Campy dropouts that I've ever seen. Campy had those dropouts made by several sources so there could have been variances in the forgings.

The other three dropouts on your bike could be marked Campy but after all it's probably French so who knows what they did after drinking lunch!

The right rear dropout also could have been replaced with a Huret dropout during a repair!

I'm a frequent contributor to the GitaneUSA.com web site and have 3 classic Gitane Super Corsas plus 6 Gitane Tour de France bikes. We sold Gitanes at the shop I managed in the 70s. My first pro bike was a 1971 Gitane Super Corsa (I remember every little detail like a first lover).

In 1968 Gitane switched to their Mylar foil decals which they used pretty much unchanged until mid 1974. They also changed a number of other features on their top bikes at that time. Your bike is not a post 1968 Gitane.

If it were a pre 1968 Gitane with Campy dropouts the right one would most likely be the slightly different 1010 Sport dropouts with a small hole above the threaded hole used for mounting the derailleur. Look closely at the rear of the dropouts where the stop screws exit in the pictures that I posted. Compare that with the picture of your right rear dropout.

Gitane made bikes for the European market with proprietary Simplex or Huret dropouts to fit those derailleurs. Not many of the ones with Huret dropouts and derailleurs reached the US.

Contrary to popular misbeliefs there were never that many Gitane Super Corsas produced. Gitanes were blue collar bikes and the French preferred their own domestic Simplex and Huret derailleurs over the way more expensive imported Italian made Campagnolo components.

Look for a bike with that distinctive seat stay crimp. There were dozens of small bike manufactures in France during the late 60s and early 70s, especially around the St. Ettienne area. I'm thinking that it could have come from one of those long gone builders. You may have a genuine "Batard". ;-)

In medical school in the US, the first thing new students are taught: "When you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras.

Chas. verktyg

une_vitesse

thanks verktyg. i will take a closer look at the rear dropouts (drive side especially) and send you a report. is there anything else i should be looking at?

verktyg 

I would look at some of the smaller French manufacturers like Jeunet or Urago or maybe even an older Motobecane from the late 60s. I think that the seatstays are the most unique identifier as all of the other features were in general use.

https://www.classicrendezvous.com/France/France.html

It's appears to be a top end production model from the mid to late 60s, early 70s at the latest.

Most custom frames and even some top end bikes from the larger manufacturers would have more time spent on the seat stay caps. Yours are just crimped of swagged over, a fast (and dirty) process used on most production bikes from that era.

Don't let the Shimano DuraAce components throw you off. I think that they were a later upgrade from about 1974-76.

Good luck...

Chas. verktyg

une_vitesse

thanks, verktyg. the components were put on by me, while i was under the impression that the bike was built in the 70's. seems like i screwed up.