JunkYardBike

Be warned: last weekend I sold my 62cm Centurion Cinelli Equipe frameset at the Trexlertown swap meet. It was, without a doubt, a Centurion contracted Cinelli when it left my hands.

By some strange alchemy, it has somehow morphed into a Cinelli frame that may have been repainted and badged as a Centurion. Because that's exactly what any proud Cinelli owner would do.

Also, though the seller provides an obliquely angled photo of the rear right dropout, it doesn't clearly show the evidence of a repair. The dropout had been crushed at some point, and a torch had been used to reset it. I informed the seller of this, but apparently such information doesn't fit his marketing scheme.

Oh, and the tubing is Columbus SL/SP, not SLX. And all of the chrome has light rust pitting.

https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...%3DI%26otn%3D2

EDIT: FWIW, I have contacted the seller with this information.

cudak888 

Crook.

-Kurt

jan nikolajsen 

lame

mudboy

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a "real" Cinelli have fastback seatstays? In any case, yes, lame.

JunkYardBike

Anyone 'in the know' probably wouldn't be fooled, especially given the decals! I'm not sure all Cinellis had fastback seatstay arrangements, but most I've seen have.

afilado

Sorry to say, I've had experience with this Ebay seller and this is true to his method. He skillfully skirts around the truth just enough to be ambiguously enticing, leaving plenty of room on the other side of the transaction for deniability as necessary. A skillful player.

I even had telephone conversation with him and he played the misunderstood, unjustly accused defense well. His last resort was indignant injury.

Too bad, because he frequently has some interesting stuff.

afilado

Bump this for emphasis.

Wulf

I had Windsor Pro that I thought might have been made by Cinelli. I never made such a claim when I sold it. At least it had fastback seat cluster and round holes in the lugs

Wulf

For this guy you might consider setting up a throwaway Ebay account and bid it ridiculously high.

RobbieTunes

He knows exactly what he has.

He always acts like he doesn't.

He sells a ton of bikes.

It may work for him.

Not for me.

cudak888 

+1,000. Do it with everything he has until he learns honesty.

-Kurt

jlh529

You guys are really being a bunch of jerks if you ask me... Calling me a "crook" etc???

How am I a crook? I don't see how photographing EVERY part of the frame in detail could possibly be trying to hide anything and those out there who are calling to make a false bid on it are just fraudulent and mean.

First of all I am calling the frame a Cinelli because it IS a Cinelli. If that's not the exact term used for a Centurion branded Cinelli well excuse me... your bike-nerd-dom clearly surpasses mine... (I bow in awe)....

Secondly I completely forgot that the previous owner mentioned something about a rear dropout repair... probably because I can hardly tell that anything has been repaired and the frame is excellent in all regards, as far as I can tell (and I'm good at this, it's what I do).

The previous owner is probably just salty because I'm industrious enough to sell it for more than he could.

If you're interested in the frame feel free to contact me with any questions.

Jim

KonAaron Snake 

I'm one of the least knowledgable here, and fairly new to our hobby, but even I know this isn't a Cinelli. Your ad is absurd and clearly misleading. For the record, a friend of mine was selling one of these in a 55cm size, in MUCH better shape, at Trexlertown and he carefully called it a CENTURION made Cinelli. That's because he's honest.

Don't confuse generous pricing and an honest disposition with being salty and un-industrious. Almost all of us will flip bikes on ocassion, and we certainly wouldn't criticize another for doing it. You're being called out for being a dishonest dirt ball, not for flipping a bike.

afilado

I'm not the guy who called you a "crook" but I stand by my statement of experience with you. I considered you misleading then, and still do. I declare myself distinctly free from your tasty "jerk" remark. That's awfully similar to the language you used on me before.

In your "first" and "second" examples above.......you now stand alerted by the various facts and credible claims contained in this thread. As a good citizen why not let your Ebay ad reflect your new understanding?

J

cudak888 

Omitting text is as serious and underhanded as omitting photos. The damage on the right-hand dropout is virtually inconsequential as a photo, but anything but once the explanation for the damage is known.

Furthermore, according to people who have not owned any bikes sold to you, this little convenient lack of disclosure on your part appears to be a recurring theme. Keep this in mind - the Cinelli isn't the only scar to your reputation.


It is not.

Is a Confente-built Masi a Confente? No, it's a Masi.

Is a Ross built by Spectrum Cycles a Spectrum? No, it's a Ross.

Is a Bridgestone made by Panasonic a Panasonic? No, it's a Bridgestone.

Was your bike sold as a Cinelli? No, it was sold as a Centurion.

Your bike is a Centurion, made by Cinelli for Centurion. Simple as that.

Now that you remember, will you disclose this in your auction?


That's what I call a completely uncalled for attack on someone who sold this to you with good faith and steadfast honestly. Before you stick your foot in your mouth again, do yourself a favor and shut up (or gather up some honesty - quickly).

-Kurt

JunkYardBike

I'd take issue with the claim you photographed every part of the frame (see below) but I do understand it is difficult to accurately represent the condition of a frame through photographs alone. I usually err on the side of caution, and have been told by buyers the items I've sold look to be in better shape than depicted in the photos. However, on the flip side, it's also obvious you are a very skilled photographer, and know how to manipulate lighting. I'm also curious as to whether you touched it up a bit in photoshop. Your photos look far better than the frame does in person.

You are correct that the technicalities are a bit silly, but most in the hobby would not consider it a 'true' Cinelli. This matters because it has bearing on the market value of the frame. As a seller, I wouldn't want an amateur hobbyist misled into believing this was possibly a Cinelli badged frame that was repainted and badged as a Centurion.

See photos below. I believe it's far more noticeable in person than in the photos. However, I do understand how an in-person buyer, in the heat of the moment, might not notice it either. That's why I pointed it out to you.

Not at all. I think you paid a fair price, and I knew it could probably fetch a bit more on ebay. However, I was concerned with some of the issues and decided I'd rather sell it in person to allow potential buyers the chance to inspect it.






This one is prior to a bit of cleaning with bronze wool:

JunkYardBike

Oh, and regarding your ebay listing Q&A, I'm not sure what 'oh so slightly mentioned' the dropout repair means. I told you. I'm not sure how someone slightly mentions something. Also, I wasn't bragging about the 130mm rear spacing, I was informing you because to many collectors, that would detract from the value of the frameset (though it can obviously be reset).

cudak888 

^
JunkYard is being far too nice and diplomatic to you, jlh529. You owe him an apology.

-Kurt

afilado

Just more evidence of his shady, hedging ways. Must work for him.

J

jlh529

again you guys are really brutal.

If you saw this frame you would probably have the same opinion as me.

The problem with doing business on ebay is that if you make any oversights, or don't know as much as the biggest expert out there, everyone is quick to call you a liar or a thief. If you all were really decent people you would just write to tell me hey... I don't think you're exactly correct in your info on this bike, most people don't consider this a "Cinelli". As far as I'm concerned any bike with the Cinelli c engraved in the stays and fork crown is most certainly a Cinelli. In this case I called it a Cinelli since I was unsure if the paint was original. SO I was trying to be MORE accurate than calling it a centurion.

Worse yet the guy who sold it to me has posted the photos from PRIOR TO HIS OWN RESTORATION to try to make me out to be a crook! Now THAT is shady. The bike had been restored of many of the issues in those photos before I bought it.... That's dirty pool, Junkyardbike. Again you are just salty because I'm flipping it... back off.

I've already added an appendage to the auction but it seems I will probably have to end it, and start a new auction with a different title etc. Frankly I appreciate the info on the tubing and branding of the frame but for future reference, there is really no need to be so accusatory over this stuff. I'm just trying to get this frame, in an honest fashion, to someone it fits who will love it.

Good Day.

jlh529

.... Alright fairly... I don't think junkyard bike is being an ass here. You did tell me about the dropout and I promptly forgot about it AND didn't notice it later.

just really guys... ease up. I'm not trying to fool anyone on any bikes...ever.... It's very tough to get every detail right all of the time.

I'd liek to send out an all encompassing SHEEEESH here.

JunkYardBike

The only photo 'pre-restoration' is the one I indicated above, and I've provide a before and after shot. My 'restoration' consisted of some WD-40 and brass wool on some of the chrome to address the rust (and it's sprouting again), some dishsoap and a rag, and then some wax on the frame.

That's probably a good idea.

USAZorro

From what I've seen, auction accuracy and disclosure save a lot of headaches later on. The sale price not be as high, but the incidence of righteously indignant buyers goes way down. Not sure that I'd consider the gaps with the initial listing to be "little", but to be fair to the seller, we should take a time out and give him (I'm presuming) a chance to put up the new auction.

cudak888 

No, and we see the frame.

Not if it's a once-off issue that's promptly rectified. You will find very little sympathy for repeat offenders.


No wonder you're always in hot water. Those Cinelli engraved castings are as generic as a Cinelli-stamped bottom bracket. Any builder could get them if he or she wished.

A number of frames that are neither Cinelli nor Centurion were built by framebuilders who used these castings - with the Flying C engraving intact.


Now you are showing your real colors. Remember what I said about sticking your foot in your mouth?

At this point, you might as well tell everyone that you are a charlatan, because there is no way in hell that you can redeem yourself at this point.


Look who's talking.

John, are you going to let this fellow unfairly attack Junkyardbike?

-Kurt

cudak888 

Sure looks it around here...

-Kurt