Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 37
  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Vintage steel frame identification

    I have inherited a really nice very old steel bike frame and which I am currently building back to be a bike again. There is no marking anywhere on the bike except a serial number and 'brev Campagnolo' on the front drop outs.

    Would love to know what brand and model my frame is. It seems very high quality, light weight and beautifully welded together.

    Serial number is: 001465 BK

    Only things I've heard so far are that it's old (!) very expensive (lovely) and maybe from 1950s-60s. Also they think it's a tourer because of the lugs above on the dropouts - ?

    Some pictures of the drop outs, forks and welds.
    <http://www.flickr.com/photos/_pitkin/4828100962/>
    <http://www.flickr.com/photos/_pitkin/4828100874/>
    <http://www.flickr.com/photos/_pitkin/4828100366/>
    <http://www.flickr.com/photos/_pitkin/4827491399/>

    Help would be really greatly appreciated as I try to make a nice vintage bike out of it.

  2. #2
    Let your bike be the tool cranky old road's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    NC/SC border
    My Bikes
    '66 Raleigh Carlton, '70 Ron Cooper, '96 Bianchi CD'I, Zonal Frame with Xenon gruppo, Carbon Frame with Record Gruppo, Columbia Twosome
    Posts
    800
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Seems odd to me for a supposed old valuable frame that the bottom bracket is welded rather than lugged. You'll probably want to post a photo of the head tube and seat cluster, and measurements of the seat tube inside diameter and bottom bracket width.
    Never try to teach a pig to sing...

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    A picture of where the seat goes in, and the seat post: <http://www.flickr.com/photos/_pitkin/4827823537/>

    I think it's 25mm in diameter and says this on the seat post but I think it says 25.(something) but the decimal is illegible.

    This is the frame in its entirety with some of the parts that I might use.

    <http://www.flickr.com/photos/_pitkin/4827831817/>

  4. #4
    DRF aka Thrifty Bill wrk101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    The NC Mountains
    My Bikes
    Too many to list, all vintage
    Posts
    19,267
    Mentioned
    47 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Fork is the nicest part. I do not think it matches the bike, totally different construction, etc. Rear dropouts do not match front dropouts. Small seat post diameter is indicative of lower grade tubing.

    Frame does not appear to be super valuable but is nice.

    What is the rear spacing?
    Last edited by wrk101; 07-25-10 at 05:45 PM.

  5. #5
    Old fart JohnDThompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Appleton WI
    My Bikes
    Several, mostly not name brands.
    Posts
    12,356
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Looks like a Trusty-built Lambert frame with a replacement fork.

  6. #6
    Randomhead
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    12,418
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    John probably has the id right, but there were some valuable fillet brazed frames built in the C&V era. This is fillet brazed, not welded.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    425
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think it looks like a lovely frame, and id have no issues riding it.

  8. #8
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Camp Hill, PA
    My Bikes
    Too many to list here check my signature.
    Posts
    19,730
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Viscount?
    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto (2), '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '88 Trofeo, '86 Volpe, '89 Axis, '79 Mixte SOLD, '99 Mega Pro XL Ti, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

    Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '86 Bertoni (sold), '09 Motobecane SS, '98 Hetchins M.O., '09 K2 Mainframe, '89 Trek 2000, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape

  9. #9
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,211
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yep, probably either Lambert or Viscount, but the deal-killer will be the BB: is the shell threaded or does it use pressed-in cartridge bearings?
    the fork crown is the same as my Bob Jackson Merlin, which is definitely a step nicer than the Yamaha replacement forks that Viscount used to deal with the "death fork" issue.
    just to be a stickler about it: what we call "fillet brazed" the British call "bronze-welded", sometimes even shortening it to "welded" when comparing to a lugged frame...in that context it's understood that they're not talking about a "welded" frame as we'd know it.
    Last edited by unworthy1; 07-25-10 at 07:31 PM.

  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thanks for all of this useful information! What is C&V?
    In response to some of the questions:
    - rear spacing: is that the distance between the rear drop outs? If so, that's 5 inches (measured with a wonky ruler).
    - the BB: assuming that's the bottom bracket? It had two bearing cartridges in either end and a solid axle (?) through the middle. Couldn't see any threading.

    Is it normal for the forks and frame to be different and used together like this? I'm almost sure that these were together in their last riding days together...

  11. #11
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,211
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    C&V: Classic and Vintage (relax, you're soaking in it)
    your rear spacing (measured between the inner dropout faces is 120mm (about 4.75") for 5-speed or 126mm (about 5") for 6-speed.
    BB= Bottom Bracket (in this case the shell) and your answer confirms that it's a Viscount or a Lambert. Your new problems are that the shell is unthreaded and the axle (spindle) for the crank is unique in that it is un-tapered, designed to work only with the original Lambert/Viscount crank (and a worthless design you don't want).
    The fast/dirty solution is to buy a BB unit that requires no threads (or damaged threads) in the BB shell: the good one is from Velo Orange, the cheap one is from YST.

  12. #12
    Senior Member 5cagm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    My Bikes
    1984 Nishiki Landau, 1991 Merlin Titanium, 199? Lotto MBK Team
    Posts
    494
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
    C&V: Classic and Vintage (relax, you're soaking in it)
    your rear spacing (measured between the inner dropout faces is 120mm (about 4.75") for 5-speed or 126mm (about 5") for 6-speed.
    BB= Bottom Bracket (in this case the shell) and your answer confirms that it's a Viscount or a Lambert. Your new problems are that the shell is unthreaded and the axle (spindle) for the crank is unique in that it is un-tapered, designed to work only with the original Lambert/Viscount crank (and a worthless design you don't want).
    The fast/dirty solution is to buy a BB unit that requires no threads (or damaged threads) in the BB shell: the good one is from Velo Orange, the cheap one is from YST.
    One concern. Are the bottom bracket shells a standard size for a Lambert/Viscount bottom bracket shell? If the shell is anything like a Merlin pressed in BB shell, I don't think it is a standard size.

  13. #13
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,211
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    i don't know (but some Viscount / Lambert owners can chime in) but I think that the BB shell is very close to the standard 68mm width and 1.37" diameter. I'm guessing that these "aerospace" frames were using standard readily available tubing back in the '70s, and they would have used a standard BB blank...unlike the "real" aerospace titanium frames that had to initially use tubing that was surplus from fighter jet manufacture.

  14. #14
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Ok sounds interesting. I have the bottom bracket (took it out so that I could powder coat the frame) so will photo it and put it up to see if it's useful/usable - ?

    Are there any considerations on headset and quill that I need to think about? Also, would the bike have used 27 1 1/4 wheels? And would 700c ones be ok?

    Really appreciating all of your help here!

  15. #15
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,211
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by rosieochiltree View Post
    Ok sounds interesting. I have the bottom bracket (took it out so that I could powder coat the frame) so will photo it and put it up to see if it's useful/usable - ?

    Are there any considerations on headset and quill that I need to think about? Also, would the bike have used 27 1 1/4 wheels? And would 700c ones be ok?

    Really appreciating all of your help here!
    it would be more useful to measure the BB shell (both ID and width) and use that to determine what replacement would fit.
    it might have used 27" wheels , but a lot of Viscounts came with sewups so 700C would be an exact match in that case. You'll have to just try a wheel out for fit and see. The steerer would most likely be a standard one so a standard 1" threaded headset should work as well as standard 1" quill stem.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    2,930
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
    ...just to be a stickler about it: what we call "fillet brazed" the British call "bronze-welded", sometimes even shortening it to "welded" when comparing to a lugged frame...in that context it's understood that they're not talking about a "welded" frame as we'd know it.
    That's a good history lesson, but just to be a stickler back, it is good to dispense with inaccurate terminology probably invented by the marketing department. There is nothing "welded" about that frame. It is brazed. All brazed and nothing but brazed.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Lancaster County, PA
    My Bikes
    '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
    Posts
    5,063
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mills View Post
    That's a good history lesson, but just to be a stickler back, it is good to dispense with inaccurate terminology probably invented by the marketing department. There is nothing "welded" about that frame. It is brazed. All brazed and nothing but brazed.
    Where is Eisenhower when Monte and Old Blood & Guts get into it?

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    2,930
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by picchio special View Post
    where is eisenhower when monte and old blood & guts get into it?
    lol!

  19. #19
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I have measured the frame bits and you seem to be correct in your assumptions - I think:

    The internal diameter of the BB is 35mm (external 39/40) and the width is 67mm.

    The headset seems to be just over an inch at 30mm but that might be my bad measuring?

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by rosieochiltree View Post
    I have measured the frame bits and you seem to be correct in your assumptions - I think:

    The internal diameter of the BB is 35mm (external 39/40) and the width is 67mm.

    The headset seems to be just over an inch at 30mm but that might be my bad measuring?
    I got the same bb shell measurements on a fillet brazed viscount. I tried to measure carefully because someone told me that the max shell id for a vo grand cru threadless bb to most likely work well was 34mm. The id is probably smaller inward of the bearing space so maybe it would still work. I think those are really lite and nice frames, worth fixing up if you can figure out the bb.

  21. #21
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by dnomel View Post
    I got the same bb shell measurements on a fillet brazed viscount. I tried to measure carefully because someone told me that the max shell id for a vo grand cru threadless bb to most likely work well was 34mm. The id is probably smaller inward of the bearing space so maybe it would still work. I think those are really lite and nice frames, worth fixing up if you can figure out the bb.
    Great news. I definitely did not measure accurately as I am missing the required tools! Did you fix your frame up? Do you have pictures of yours? I am very much liking the frame and can't wait to get going. The bearings and axle (?) are there and look in good condition, I guess it's just a case of finding some cranks that fit?

  22. #22
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,211
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    unless somebody did you a big favor and replaced the original spindle, the only cranks that will work on the untapered spindle are the original Lamberts (which look like a slightly cruder TA Cyclotourist set). This is why replacing the entire BB unit makes life better. That and a steel fork and these frames make for a decent ride, I have seen many (retrofitted) still on the road.

  23. #23
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
    the only cranks that will work on the untapered spindle are the original Lamberts (which look like a slightly cruder TA Cyclotourist set).
    Ah ok, is this a bad idea then? Or just something difficult to get hold of?

    Quote Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
    This is why replacing the entire BB unit makes life better. That and a steel fork and these frames make for a decent ride, I have seen many (retrofitted) still on the road.
    And these are these BB units are those Velo Orange ones that people have mentioned? The steel forks I hear are good from the above so that's done I guess - any idea who made these?! Great news on the rest.

    I'll go BB shopping...

  24. #24
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,211
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by rosieochiltree View Post
    Ah ok, is this a bad idea then? Or just something difficult to get hold of?
    It's bad because untapered spindles (and the soft alloy Lambert cranks that fit them) are not a good design: the taper is important to get a good tight fit between these materials, that's why 99.9% of all square-taper cranks use a taper. The Brits who made Lamberts/Viscounts were not bicycle engineers and they made some poor design choices in an effort to be innovative and cut corners. The Lambert cranks are both difficult to find and best left alone, if you did find them they'd only be worth scavenging the rings off to put on a TA (tapered) crankset.


    And these are these BB units are those Velo Orange ones that people have mentioned? The steel forks I hear are good from the above so that's done I guess - any idea who made these?! Great news on the rest.

    I'll go BB shopping...
    Some folks have been lucky in finding just a spindle they could use with the OEM pressed-in bearings, but I don't know what brand spindle (or where/if they still sell them) or how much extra machining was required to make that work... seems like the VO unit is the best unit yet for this application, good quality and at a decent price, too, Before you buy you must settle on what crankset you'll use it with, so you buy the correct spindle length (your taper choice is limited since VO only makes it in ISO, but plenty of cranksets out there to pick from.)

  25. #25
    Seņor Member USAZorro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Carlisle, PA
    My Bikes
    1954 Hetchins M.O., 1959 Viking Severn Valley, 1970 Raleigh Pro, 1972 Fuji "The Finest", 1974 Raleigh Superbe&Comp, 1976 Raleigh Team Pro, 1994 Trek 830 MTB, 2000 Bob Jackson Arrowhead, Unicycle
    Posts
    13,034
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    That isn't the Viscount crankset. Are there threads inside the bottom bracket of the frame (where the pedal crank passes through - no intention of offending with this clarification - just hoping to prevent time lost for a potential next question).
    The search for inner peace continues...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •