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Old 07-28-10, 03:48 PM   #1
BrianEugene
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My Italian CL find, looking for more information on this Scapin (PIC HEAVY)

In a CL ad titled "bicycles in need of restoration - $30" the seller stated that he had two bikes in unrideable condition: a women's free spirit for $10 and a men's Scapin for $20. He didn't list a phone number, so I didn't think I had much of a chance emailing him 45 minutes after the post, but gave it a shot. I told him that I wanted both bikes and was free all day. To my surprise, he emailed me back, telling me that they were mine if I was free at that moment. He said that 4 people had emailed him first, but since I wanted both, he decided to call me.

Since I do not own a car, I checked out the only available nearby Zipcar for 2.5 hours for about $30. When I got to the seller's house an hour and fifteen minutes later, he told me that he'd gotten about 30 emails, but honored his original price. The free spirit was in worse shape than the Scapin and I didn't bother taking pictures of it. I immediately took it to the local bike co-op to donate, but was pleasantly surprised to be offered a campy wheelset and front hub in trade.

So, for a total of $60 spent, I walked away with this Scapin and 3 campy hubs (two of those as complete wheels).

Aside from gloating, I'm posting hoping to get a little bit more information. I'd like to get the campy ID'ed, but more importantly, I'd like to see what anyone can tell me about the frame. I'm guessing that it is an '85 from the markings on the crank, and I know that it is fully chromed columbus tubing, because chrome is showing through the paint chips and there is a Columbus dove engraved on the steerer tube of the fork. Due to the size (62cm), I'm guessing SP or SL/SP mix. Also, how highly are/were Scapin frames regarded? Would this model have been at the bottom, middle, or top of their line-up? Does anyone know how to pronounce Scapin? I read on a non-bike related website that the Italian surname "Scapin" is pronounced skuh-PAHN. Input?

Anyhow, pictures below:




Front and rear dropouts labeled "SCAPIN"

I read that an 11 inside a square indicates a 1985 Super Record Crank

I'm thinking that perhaps "D5" might indicate 1985 as well.

Chrome showing through paint:

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Old 07-28-10, 03:52 PM   #2
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Victory Brakes?


Derailleurs?


Rear hub is campy, front was iltech

One of the hubs that I picked up from the co-op (they all have the same logo)
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Old 07-28-10, 03:58 PM   #3
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I've torn the bike down, but am having two problems. First, the seat post is pretty stuck. I started with Knock 'er Loose and moved on to acetone, with no results yet. I'm preparing myself for the possibility of hacksawing. Secondly, the derailleur bolt is stripped and I'm thinking of hacksawing it off as well. Is the derailleur hanger likely to be threaded? Is the derailleur worth saving at a risk of marking up the rear dropout by attempting to hacksaw the bolt only? Does anyone have any other suggestions for getting the derailleur off?
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Old 07-28-10, 04:00 PM   #4
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Scapins are very nice bikes...judging from the details and components I'd guess that this is a slightly "budget" frame perhaps built of Aelle tubing...nevertheless, a great find and even better given the price! Clean it up (you might need oxalic acid) and ride that thing.
Edit: SLOW DOWN, don't start in with the hacksaw until you've tried less harsh methods...mix acetone with ATF 50-50 and apply liberally...get a small propane torch and carefully heat things up...allow plenty of time for stuff to work.
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Old 07-28-10, 04:05 PM   #5
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I've already hit the exposed chrome with a little lemon juice and aluminum foil and the rust came right off with no pitting. I've purchased oxalic acid but I'm waiting to get the derailleur off and seat post out before I soak the frame.

Was I right on my assumption of Victory?

How could I tell if it is Aelle tubing?
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Old 07-28-10, 04:07 PM   #6
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Jesus, don't cut the derailleur off....
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Old 07-28-10, 04:11 PM   #7
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Quote:
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I told him that I wanted both bikes and was free all day. [...] He said that 4 people had emailed him first, but since I wanted both, he decided to call me.
Hmm, wise strategy.
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Old 07-28-10, 05:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
.mix acetone with ATF 50-50 and apply liberally...get a small propane torch and carefully heat things up...allow plenty of time for stuff to work.
Is this advice for the aluminum seatpost only? Would it also work on what looks like a rusted steel derailleur bolt? Should I soak the derailleur in oxalic acid or will it destroy the aluminum?
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Old 07-28-10, 05:11 PM   #9
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ATF and acetone is for steel on steel. You want 10% ammonia for aluminum alloy on steel. It wont happen overnight, more like a week or two.
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Old 07-28-10, 05:16 PM   #10
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that formula works best on things just rusted so soak the RD bolt (steel in steel: just rust) and apply heat with the torch...where you also have corroded aluminum there will be aluminum-oxide and that mix may not be enough to do anything (but can't hurt). I don't think oxalic acid harms aluminum but again it's primarily a rust remover, not effective with stuck alloy parts (seatpost and stem). You might also search these archives for lots and lots of pointers on rust/corroded parts unsticking (industrial ammonia might be called for, and LYE will harm aluminum, but it's very dangerous) but "once you cut metal it's forever".
Edit: I'm just guessing that it's Aelle: for one there's no tubing decal, next the detailing is just a little "average" (dropouts, brakebridge, lugs) I've seen a few Scapins and they are pretty "bling-y" with the chrome accents and pantographing...no guarantees, just an educated guess. BTW lots of Aelle bikes from good builders (like Scapin) are fantastic rides, all they lack are a little bling.

Last edited by unworthy1; 07-28-10 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 07-28-10, 05:30 PM   #11
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Oxalic acid will etch aluminum.
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Old 07-28-10, 05:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Scapins are very nice bikes...judging from the details and components I'd guess that this is a slightly "budget" frame perhaps built of Aelle tubing...nevertheless, a great find and even better given the price! Clean it up (you might need oxalic acid) and ride that thing.
Edit: SLOW DOWN, don't start in with the hacksaw until you've tried less harsh methods...mix acetone with ATF 50-50 and apply liberally...get a small propane torch and carefully heat things up...allow plenty of time for stuff to work.
+1...It's a Scapin, but this looks like a MUCH lower end bike and far less refined than the one I recently flipped...the frame details are far less sharp...the components are much lower end campy...and the condition is rough.
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Old 07-28-10, 06:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianEugene View Post
I've torn the bike down, but am having two problems. First, the seat post is pretty stuck. I started with Knock 'er Loose and moved on to acetone, with no results yet. I'm preparing myself for the possibility of hacksawing. Secondly, the derailleur bolt is stripped and I'm thinking of hacksawing it off as well. Is the derailleur hanger likely to be threaded? Is the derailleur worth saving at a risk of marking up the rear dropout by attempting to hacksaw the bolt only? Does anyone have any other suggestions for getting the derailleur off?
Derailleur bolt: Have you thought of degreasing the bolt and an expendable (I assume allen) wrench, then JB welding (or otherwise epoxying) the wrench into the hole. Let it set up well, then have at. Preferably after long application of some penetrant.
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Old 07-28-10, 06:50 PM   #14
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Yes sir - Victory.
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Old 07-28-10, 07:15 PM   #15
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I picked up a very similar Scapin on eBay for about $200 a couple of years back; it was equipped with circa '85 Victory, and built with Aelle tubing. I know that Aelle gets pooh-poohed on C/V, but it's a very rideable frame ... and after stripping off the Victory drivetrain and replacing with '70's Nuovo Record, and kitting it out with a Campy tubular wheelset, it weighs in at a very respectable 21 pounds.

And now I must confess: the paint was really chipped when I got it, and I didn't think an Aelle frame was worth a real respray, so I **ahem** stripped it and powdercoated it in black. Since one of the cool things about Scapin frames is the name embossed in the seatstays, and the "three circles" logo on the headtube lug, I painted those silver. It looks pretty nice, if I do say so.
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Old 07-28-10, 07:28 PM   #16
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don't forget that you can get to the BACK of that bolt.... a little heat...some gentle taps...oil...everything you try from the front can be done to the back as well.......be sure to grind a fresh crisp face and edges on your allen wrench and seat it as far as possible into the bolt......or even a very large/sharp ezout........

if you go drastic; you might drill and tap a hole in the back of the dérailleur bolt....screw in a high grade allen head bolt and drive it out from the back.....
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Old 07-28-10, 08:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Edit: I'm just guessing that it's Aelle: for one there's no tubing decal, next the detailing is just a little "average" (dropouts, brakebridge, lugs) I've seen a few Scapins and they are pretty "bling-y" with the chrome accents and pantographing...no guarantees, just an educated guess. BTW lots of Aelle bikes from good builders (like Scapin) are fantastic rides, all they lack are a little bling.
At one point there was a tubing decal. There is glue residue in the shape of a decal near the seat lug cluster. However, I accept your other pieces of evidence. Does anyone out there have any/know of any Scapin catalogs? Is there any way to differentiate Aelle from SL from SP from etc other than frame details, sticker, or catalog comparisons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roll-Monroe-Co View Post
Derailleur bolt: Have you thought of degreasing the bolt and an expendable (I assume allen) wrench, then JB welding (or otherwise epoxying) the wrench into the hole. Let it set up well, then have at. Preferably after long application of some penetrant.
That is a terrific idea.

Quote:
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ATF and acetone is for steel on steel. You want 10% ammonia for aluminum alloy on steel. It wont happen overnight, more like a week or two.
Ahh. I think that in reading old posts, I got confused between acetone and amonia. I guess I'll make a trip to Ace tomorrow.

How do you guys pronounce Scapin? scuh-PAHN sounded so wrong (and I had a hard time not saying 'SKAPE-in') until I learned that the full name of the founder/original frame-builder was um-BERT-o scuh-PAHN
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Old 07-28-10, 08:43 PM   #18
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The RD bolt should loosen by gently tapping it alternately from up, down, left and right. Best if you can hold the hanger in a vise to avoid bending it.
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Old 07-28-10, 08:49 PM   #19
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There's an '83 catalog on Bulgier's site (also a '81, but that's of less use to you):
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/scapin83/
You'll notice some similarities to your frame, but if you really study the pics you'll see differences, too...only way to tell Aelle from SL from SP without decals AFAIK is by weight: comparing to a known frame of same size.
DOH!; and of course: seat post size...if it's 27.2 it might be SL, if it's smaller it's probably either an SP seat tube (27.0 a good bet) or Aelle (26.8 a good bet).
Another thing is frame tubing can be faked with the simple swap of a decal...and tubing can be over-rated, if your bike is well-designed, well-built and well-fit that's what's important.
I always pronounced it ska-PEEN, but what do I know?

Last edited by unworthy1; 07-28-10 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 07-28-10, 11:00 PM   #20
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Columbus Zeta? That's a new one to me. From what I can tell, it's even lower than Aelle. Didn't think this post would end with me hoping that the bike is at least Aelle.

I've got the rear derailleur/drop out soaking in Acetone and ATF 50/50 overnight. I also hit the seat post with a propane torch. I couldn't get the seat post out (wasn't expecting to), but hopefully, I've broken up some of the oxidation enough to let the amonia in when I buy it in the morning. I don't know if it is clear in the pictures, but the seat post is so far down that the seat post begins to taper below the seat lug. I'm thinking that this will make it easier for the amonia to soak/seep down.


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DOH!; and of course: seat post size...if it's 27.2 it might be SL, if it's smaller it's probably either an SP seat tube (27.0 a good bet) or Aelle (26.8 a good bet).
And now I'm even more excited to get that seat post out!
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Old 07-29-10, 12:49 AM   #21
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Wow, that' a nice bike. Can't wait to see the rebuild.
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Old 07-29-10, 07:40 AM   #22
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I always pronounced it ska-PEEN, but what do I know?
+1
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Old 07-29-10, 08:27 PM   #23
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Doused the seat post with Amonia a couple times throughout the day. Put the seat post in a vice later and was able to get it out. Seatpost was a 27.2 pantographed campy. So it's likely that the seat tube is Columbus SL?
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Old 07-29-10, 08:34 PM   #24
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Doused the seat post with Amonia a couple times throughout the day. Put the seat post in a vice later and was able to get it out. Seatpost was a 27.2 pantographed campy. So it's likely that the seat tube is Columbus SL?
maybe! but maybe not the best news is that you got the post out and nobody died.
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Old 07-29-10, 10:58 PM   #25
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yeah, but still working on the derailleur, so don't go counting chickens
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