Did I do anything seriously wrong here?
08-29-10, 11:00 AM
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Did I do anything seriously wrong here?
...about three years ago I thought I'd try to 'update' my P8 a little. And found that my options for 'updating' were severely limited, given the age of the bike, the different dimensions, etc. (that is, until I joined this forum and have done a little reading...I guess my options are not as 'limited' as I had been led to believe...but some of those options would probably be best left to the professionals)...
...Anyway, I had been plagued with the minor, annoying more than anything else, problem of my original Shimano RD-Z501 RD and friction stem shifter skipping over the fourth cog of my freewheel (Maillard Helicomatic, 28/24/20/17/14/13; it skipped over the 17). So I thought I'd see if there were any 6-speed indexed options available to me at such a late date (2007). Well...eBay yielded these:
NOS Shimano SL-S431 SIS 6-speed stem shifter (apologies for the pic being a little out of focus)
and NOS Shimano RD-A410 RSX RD
...the combination seems to be working nearly flawlessly so far; shifts dependably and does not skip over any cogs like the original did. I guess my question is: did I make any major mistakes in buying/using these particular components, or are there any issues I need to be watching for with them? (I don't recall now what I paid for them, other than it wasn't an awful lot...maybe 50.00 tops, including shipping...)
...Anyway, I had been plagued with the minor, annoying more than anything else, problem of my original Shimano RD-Z501 RD and friction stem shifter skipping over the fourth cog of my freewheel (Maillard Helicomatic, 28/24/20/17/14/13; it skipped over the 17). So I thought I'd see if there were any 6-speed indexed options available to me at such a late date (2007). Well...eBay yielded these:
NOS Shimano SL-S431 SIS 6-speed stem shifter (apologies for the pic being a little out of focus)
and NOS Shimano RD-A410 RSX RD
...the combination seems to be working nearly flawlessly so far; shifts dependably and does not skip over any cogs like the original did. I guess my question is: did I make any major mistakes in buying/using these particular components, or are there any issues I need to be watching for with them? (I don't recall now what I paid for them, other than it wasn't an awful lot...maybe 50.00 tops, including shipping...)
08-29-10, 11:07 AM
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You got a heliomatic to work almost flawlessly with an index shifter and you want to know what you did wrong???? Nice work!
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08-29-10, 11:11 AM
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A buddy of mine did this almost same thing, he used a mountain bike rear dérailleur and he swears by it. 76 Peugeot I believe
08-29-10, 11:20 AM
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Bravo!! Great work, this is exactly what I love to see from the C&V community.
I don't see any mistakes from the pics you posted. Did you use Index Compatible (SIS) cable housing for the RD cable run?
How about a pic of the whole bike!
Just goes to show ya...don't be afraid to try something different!
...,maybe clean your chain.
I don't see any mistakes from the pics you posted. Did you use Index Compatible (SIS) cable housing for the RD cable run?
How about a pic of the whole bike!
Just goes to show ya...don't be afraid to try something different!
...,maybe clean your chain.
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08-29-10, 11:22 AM
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I didn't know that they had a 6speed index.
Man I had a Pearl 1984 P8 and I regret ever selling that bike 2 years ago. I owned it since 86.
08-29-10, 11:23 AM
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...thx, Rocco...I know there is a lot of 'bad press' surrounding those Helicos...didn't know they were problematic with indexed shifting, too...
08-29-10, 11:28 AM
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...that's next...
Last edited by Allvit54; 08-29-10 at 11:42 AM.
08-29-10, 11:32 AM
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The only real problem is that Shimano indexed freewheels have a specific spacing between the cogs (Suntour indexed freewheels have there own unique spacing, etc). Getting one manufacturers spacing to work with another's derailler is the trck, it's not just Helicos.
08-29-10, 11:33 AM
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Nothing wrong with using a MTB derailleur (looks like you did)...I did the same on my Varsity grocery bike. they work the same as any other ....The derailleur doesn't care where you're riding
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08-29-10, 11:41 AM
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...that's the second reply to mention this...apparently I DID inadvertently put a MTB RD on this...the cage made me wonder about that...oh, well...obviously no major harm done...
btw, here's the whole bike:
btw, here's the whole bike:
08-29-10, 12:05 PM
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It is not an "MTB" RD. RSX was a road group, and often came in a triple. What you have installed is a long-cage road RD. The long cage is to take up the slack given the disparity with needed chain length between riding the small front ring/smallest rear cog and the large front ring/largest rear cog.
MTB RD's are often long cage because the front is a triple, and the rear cassette is often a wide-range set of cogs, with larger ones for climbing. The long cage not only clears the larger rear cogs, it takes up the slack created with the disparity mentioned above.
Like another poster said, an RD does what it is designed and told to do. That's all. I feel the RSX long-cage is a smooth one, and you did a great job keeping that Helicomatic alive.
There may be some Trek fans with 6-sp rear Helicomatics (460? 560?) that may appreciate the 6-sp indexed upgrade.
MTB RD's are often long cage because the front is a triple, and the rear cassette is often a wide-range set of cogs, with larger ones for climbing. The long cage not only clears the larger rear cogs, it takes up the slack created with the disparity mentioned above.
Like another poster said, an RD does what it is designed and told to do. That's all. I feel the RSX long-cage is a smooth one, and you did a great job keeping that Helicomatic alive.
There may be some Trek fans with 6-sp rear Helicomatics (460? 560?) that may appreciate the 6-sp indexed upgrade.
08-29-10, 12:32 PM
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Anything wrong? I only see one thing...
Your chain needs help.
Your chain needs help.
08-29-10, 12:40 PM
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)) <> ((
i used those same shifters in index mode with a suntour 6 speed freewheel, and a shimano deore lx RD...and it shifts perfectly.
08-29-10, 12:49 PM
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It is not an "MTB" RD. RSX was a road group, and often came in a triple. What you have installed is a long-cage road RD. The long cage is to take up the slack given the disparity with needed chain length between riding the small front ring/smallest rear cog and the large front ring/largest rear cog.
MTB RD's are often long cage because the front is a triple, and the rear cassette is often a wide-range set of cogs, with larger ones for climbing. The long cage not only clears the larger rear cogs, it takes up the slack created with the disparity mentioned above.
MTB RD's are often long cage because the front is a triple, and the rear cassette is often a wide-range set of cogs, with larger ones for climbing. The long cage not only clears the larger rear cogs, it takes up the slack created with the disparity mentioned above.
). Like another poster said, an RD does what it is designed and told to do. That's all. I feel the RSX long-cage is a smooth one, and you did a great job keeping that Helicomatic alive.
There may be some Trek fans with 6-sp rear Helicomatics (460? 560?) that may appreciate the 6-sp indexed upgrade.
There may be some Trek fans with 6-sp rear Helicomatics (460? 560?) that may appreciate the 6-sp indexed upgrade.
08-29-10, 10:26 PM
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Did I do anything seriously wrong here?
Yeah, you didn't get a sweet triple crank to go with that RD
Yeah, you didn't get a sweet triple crank to go with that RD
08-30-10, 12:21 AM
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I really like those shifters—There were some (or very similar ones) on a World Sport I gave to my mom. The nice clean indexing made me completely forget how much I usually hate stem shifters.
08-30-10, 08:35 AM
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...I actually considered that. That would require replacing the FD and the BB, right? (I did replace the BB with a sealed-cartridge unit, but still sized for the double crank--you need a longer BB spindle for a triple, right?; and the FD has to be able to handle a triple, right?...you can't just use any old FD?)...and a whole new crankset (did a Nervar 170mm triple even exist?)......and what WOULD I use for a triple in place of the existing 52/42?...and why would I need one?...at this point in time, being 56, overweight, and not having done any serious riding for a while, I'm just trying to gradually work myself back into riding...probably not quite ready for anything that 'high-intensity' yet...
Last edited by Allvit54; 08-30-10 at 08:42 AM.
08-30-10, 04:54 PM
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Look at the space between the smaller chainring and the chainstay. If there's enough room for another ring then you're good. If you back the inner limit screw off on the fd and it moves over far enough to reach the hypothetical 3rd ring, and it has a cage that reaches far enough down in the back, then that's good too.
I'm not a real high intensity guy but we moved to the house in the hills and the extra ring keeps my intensity low. If I still lived in the flats I probably wouldn't worry about it.
I'm not a real high intensity guy but we moved to the house in the hills and the extra ring keeps my intensity low. If I still lived in the flats I probably wouldn't worry about it.
09-07-10, 09:11 PM
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...well...youse guys have got me thinking. I just pulled the trigger on this on the Bay last week (after doing a quick measurement of the seat tube)...
...NOS matching FD-A410 RSX FD (apologies for the pix again...dratted P&S doesn't like to focus...). 16 bux including shipping. Can work double or triple...left shift lever is friction, so I could probably use it either way...next I might try to find me a suitable triple crankset. I see plenty of 52/42/30 combinations out there (I'd like to keep the original 52/42)...but they're new and I expect there might be some compatibility problems (older type chain with wider links on newer crankset made for narrower links...could be 'sloppy')...also, I've got a Shimano UN-BBxx (forget the number) sealed-cartridge BB in there...it's ST, but I'm not sure if it's ISO or JIS...although the old Nervar cranks seem to fit on it with no problems...
...I suppose I've probably already done some damage to the bike's C&V 'cred' (if it had any to begin with...it IS 'only' a P8, after all) by putting that BB and mid-90s dérailleurs on it...
...but...any recommendations for a triple I could try on it?...
...NOS matching FD-A410 RSX FD (apologies for the pix again...dratted P&S doesn't like to focus...). 16 bux including shipping. Can work double or triple...left shift lever is friction, so I could probably use it either way...next I might try to find me a suitable triple crankset. I see plenty of 52/42/30 combinations out there (I'd like to keep the original 52/42)...but they're new and I expect there might be some compatibility problems (older type chain with wider links on newer crankset made for narrower links...could be 'sloppy')...also, I've got a Shimano UN-BBxx (forget the number) sealed-cartridge BB in there...it's ST, but I'm not sure if it's ISO or JIS...although the old Nervar cranks seem to fit on it with no problems...
...I suppose I've probably already done some damage to the bike's C&V 'cred' (if it had any to begin with...it IS 'only' a P8, after all) by putting that BB and mid-90s dérailleurs on it...
...but...any recommendations for a triple I could try on it?...
09-07-10, 09:25 PM
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Index with Helicomatic: I discovered a couple of years ago that 7-speed SIS downtube levers work perfectly with 6-speed Helicomatic clusters. You just lose the last click. What I really want to find out (one of these days) is if a set of RSX brifters (7-speed) will work as well. If so, I've got a couple of projects in mind. Unfortunately, the only RSX brifters I've got at the moment is on my replica Mavic neutral support bike.
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