Scooper

From the 1988 Tange catalog

crank_addict

^^^thank you!

Bianchigirll 

You prefer the Tange 2 frame to which Bianchi? You can't simply compare it to the Pinella since they are two entirely different machines. You need to compare it to a Tange framed Bianchi like an older Limited or Alfana. I have several tange framed Bianchis and they all ride very well.

Scooper

Yes; Kaisei. In the U.S., Kaisei tubing is distributed by UBI (United Bicycle Institute) in Oregon.

le mans

excellent

that tells me mine is from the late 80s

i wonder if you were able to buy frames only to build your own, because mine isn't branded with anything. just painted. & it's just got a sticker on the top part of the frame where the seat pole goes - CR-MO Tubing
Tange
5
P.G Tubes

& according to your chart it's a plain gauge tube for touring, nothing special, huh?

Bianchigirll 

It depends. Some companies do offer frames in various grades of Tange tubing, and of course custom builder can get some of the upperend tube sets.

It is always possible someone simply took the decals off your present frame or repainted it and only replaced the Tange tubing decal.

Scooper

If there are no decals or a serial number on your frame, it could have been made by anybody. I'm not saying it wasn't made by an established builder, but it is certainly possible it was made by an unknown hobbyist.

There are lots of amateur (hobbyist) framebuilders, and many don't put any decals or other identifying marks on their frames. Since these folks usually build only for themselves, they typically don't carry any liability insurance. These frames can wind up being sold after the builder dies.

Frames made with plain gauge tubing are usually nothing special. Sometimes, though, plain gauge tubing is intentionally used for larger frames and/or heavier riders to prevent the frame from being too flexy.

Bigbadjohn

I just bought a Concorde bike assembled in Canada that has a Tange lugged frame it's very heavy compared
to my Japanese 83 Bianchi that just got stolen it said 022 on frame very light

r0ckh0und 

How about this one.......

Kevindale

That chart answers one question I've had, and raises another. I've repeatedly seen Tange Prestige listed in tubing charts as having a seat tube sizing of .7/.4/.7, which is much thinner than SL or 531. Yet when I put calipers on my Prestige framed Panasonic, I get a seat tube OD of 29.0, and it takes a 27.2 seat tube (so 0.9 thickness, not 0.7). In the chart, I see three variants for Prestige seat tubes, the very thin .7/.4/.7, my Panasonic's .9/.6, and a third option of 1.0/.8/.6. Anyone know the story here? I'm guessing the .7/.4/.7 was for track bikes.

Scooper

The seat tube O.D. is almost certainly 28.6mm. If the tubing is painted or plated, those coatings could easily be 0.2mm thick which would account for the 29.0mm caliper measurement.

A 28.6mm O.D. tube with 0.7mm wall thickness would have in I.D. of 28.6 - 1.4 = 27.2. Typically, there's some distortion around the seat cluster due to torch heat during brazing, so the seat tube is reamed after brazing to provide easy insertion of the seatpost. Often, the seat tube is reamed to provide a 0.1mm-0.2mm clearance between the nominal O.D. of the seatpost and the I.D. of the seat tube to allow for manufacturing tolerances.

Scottybigs 

The 022 decal on your stolen Bianchi indicates Ishiwata tubing--specifically their 022 set. Lots of info on that elsewhere on the forums.

Tange made a pretty wide range of tubing--from Tange 5 straight gauge to high-end Prestige. Your Concorde could sit anywhere on the spectrum, so you'd have to be more specific (is it Tange 900? 1000? Mangalloy 2001? #3? #4?).

Scooper

Different manufacturers use the terms "double-butted", "triple-butted", "quadruple-butted" differently.

Some, like Miyata, use the term "triple-butted" to describe what is really double-butted tubes with different wall thickness at the butted ends.



Ishiwata uses the term "quadruple butted" where there are four different wall-thicknesses over the length of the tube.



Heck, even Columbus has jumped on the bandwagon by calling double-butted Spirit tubing "Triple-butted."



So, a lot of it is meaningless marketing hype without actually seeing the butting profile of the tube.

Kevindale

What's weird is that I just did these measurements on my SL tubed Tommasini, as well as the Panasonic. Both are chrome plated and painted (at least I think the Panasonic is chrome plated everywhere -- it has many fewer paint chips than the Tommasini, which is definitely fully chromed under the paint), and I get similar measure measurements of the OD of the upper seat tube for both. That is, I get a range of measures of 28.8-29.0. Both take 27.2 seat posts (the Panasonic post is the bike's original). When I weigh the frames alone, the slightly larger Tommasini frame weighs a bit less, while the charts I see indicate the Prestige frame should be a touch lighter. So is the SL tubing on the Tommasini extra thin? What do those three different seat tube measures refer to in the Tange chart? And finally, what keeps a seat tube of .7/.4/.7 from being super flexible, because that seems like a massive difference compared to .9/.6./.9?

Scooper

Most seat tubes are single butted with the butted end at the bottom bracket (the 1.0/0.8/0.6 profile of the Prestige seat tube being an exception). For example, the 531 seat tube that takes a 27.2mm seatpost is part number CB112 with the 0.8mm L1 butt being 125mm long, the L2 taper 75mm long, and the 0.5mm L3 (the seatpost end) being 435mm long. Even with the majority of the tube length having 0.5mm walls, the seat tube isn't particularly flexible because the primary load is in compression (the rider's weight) without the dynamic bending and twisting loads imposed by crank power, the rider's weight while riding/maneuvering, and banking/turning which twists the head tube out of plane alignment with the seat tube and the rear triangle out of alignment with the front triangle.



The 80s Cyclex SL seat tube is also single butted with 0.9 at the BB shell and 0.6 at the seatpost end.

mstateglfr 

Any chance within your vast wealth of tubing knowledge you happen to have scans of Ishiwata Si35 or Si45 triple butted feather tubing?

Scooper

Sorry, but no. I believe these tubes were used mostly (if not exclusively) by Fuji.

mstateglfr 

Yeah, thats the only place ive seen em. Thanks, figured it was a long shot as the late80s/early90s Ishiwata info is near 0 on the internet.

ollo_ollo

One of my favorite bikes of all time was a Centurion Pro Tour which I bought used. It had a Champion #2 tubeset with High Tension fork. Well worn, with high mileage as purchased, I commuted to work on it in Olympia, WA every Winter until I retired and it never let me down. I had to replace the worn out wheels with a new set, but no complaints on the frame. I sold it sight unseen to someone in Bellingham, WA and it is probably still rolling along. Don

DMC707

If anything, tubing for a track bike should be thicker than tubing for a road bike. The velodrome can be very hard on equipment and most Trackies value a frame with a bare minimum of flex

cbrstar

One thing I never understood is why you never see any Tange Aero tubing on road bikes. They used to have it for their BMX's in the early 80's and it was pretty cool stuff.

jetboy 

another good chart:

TenGrainBread 

I love hearing Ritchey reps harp on their version of this - "adaptive butting". A butt at one end of the tube has different thicknesses on top and bottom of the tube, supposedly in order to account for asymmetric stresses the joint might experience. For example, at the joint of the down tube and head tube, the butt in the downtube is thicker where it meets the bottom of the head tube than above this.

I'm not sure if any of this is actually structurally beneficial or not but hearing their reps talk endlessly about it at trade shows is pretty annoying.

vtchuck

I have a 77 Romic built with Champion tubing. I believe the #1, #2 etc came later.

primo123

My Maruishi has Tange Prestige tubing. Super, duper light. I was amazed. Def a bit lighter than my Trek 610 Reynolds 531 frame. I also like the Tange prestigue tubing decal more haha.