subunit

Hi folks. I have unexpectedly come down with bad case of C&V fever and need to get a reality check. For a little while I've been thinking about what my "perfect" ride would be, and decided that it would be a good cro-moly steel framed road bike, probably of older manufacture. I stumbled across what I believe is a ~1976 Centurion Semi-professional (although I am definitely not an expert and welcome any better ideas as to what it might be) frame on Ebay, and in the process of identifying it, realized it might just be my perfect frame.



A weird side effect of doing the research to ID the frame was that my original plan to build up an older steel frame with modern components seemed kind of perverse and wrong and I became determined to build up the frame with close-to-original components (I figured this might also mitigate any problems with finding compatible parts). I found a few of the components on Ebay, but they were quite expensive even used. The real shock was when I started looking for the crankset, which based on posts here and elsewhere I believe is meant to be a Sugino Mighty Custom (or Sugino Mighty Victory? I'm not sure what the difference is, the chainrings look identical to me). I saw a really, really beat up one for a reasonable price on Ebay which was bought immediately, and everything else seems to be hundreds of dollars for beat up NJS track cranks. I found one distributor that seems to sell NOS Sugino Mighty Custom cranksets, and upon contacting one of their dealers discovered the price was an sphincter-puckering $350, more than double what I paid for the frame.

What are components like this actually "worth"? Do people actually pay $350 for an old Sugino crankset, even in mint condition? $250 for NOS Sunshine Pro Am hubs? Is this just some quixotic quest which I should immediately abandon and just fit new parts to this frame? Appreciate any thoughts anyone might have.

RobbieTunes

That's a really nice frame, but there is no need to go back with original parts if someone out there is willing to outspend you on them. There are tons of parts available that will make little difference in the bike's value, or it's rideability, whether or not the overpriced OEM stuff.

Your main issue is not going to be a crankset, anyway. It appears to me, with no braze-ons, that you'll first need to decide on a shifting system, and as an extension of that, a cable guide configuration and with it, possibly a FD requirement. Everything else is pretty much bolt-on once you make your decision.

As far a Sugino cranksets, you can buy a whole bike with what you need for half of what they want for some of those cranksets. The Sugino cranksets on many mid-80's bikes are just fine. You can get a donor bike and swap over, or buy a group of parts. There are adapters out there for the cable stops/cable guides/shifters you choose, but you'd need to choose.

Good luck with the build, it's a fine frame, but I wouldn't worry so much about a crankset someone wants to sell for $300.

subunit

Thanks for the advice, Robbie. I think I'll wait around until I can find parts that are more reasonably priced, as you say. I guess you're right that it won't make much of a difference to the feel of the bike if I go for newer parts! Thanks for the derailleur PM as well. Unfortunately I already picked up Suntour Cyclone FD/RD to fit to this frame, so I can't make use of yours. Thanks again for the advice and offer!!

treebound 

What part of the world are you in?

One thing to keep in mind when looking for donor bikes is the wheel size. I'll guess that your Centurion takes a 700c wheel, but it might be a 27" as far as I know. Also, measure the rear dropout spacing, distance between the inside faces. The dropout spacing will help you further in picking a donor bike. I'll guess it is about 126mm which would mean a 7-speed should fit if it is, or some 6-speeds. If it is spaced at 120mm then you'll probably look for 5 or early 6 cog on the rear donor bikes.

On the Milwaukee Craigsllist there is currently a $25 men's road bike that could probably get you set up. Others like it show up on a regular basis. I'd have no problem finding a decently functional donor bike for under $80 locally, although most would have 27" wheels. And for a donor bike the frame size is secondary as long as it has the parts you need.

Have fun with the build, and have fun with the bike when you're done.

edit: oops, I just noticed you mentioned ebay indicating you don't have the frame in your possession (sp?) yet. Oh oh, several threads on the site here about that sort of thing. Hope you get it, let us know if you do win, lots of lurkers around here seeking info and looking for leads and jumpstarts.

pps: this one has a bunch of parts you'll need, including the crankset. So far a decent parts price, who knows where it will end up.
https://cgi.ebay.com/FIXIE-TRACK-ROAD...item2c57e207e5
(and now someone will yell at me for posting this link, oh well)

subunit

Well, the frame has finally arrived, and I've discovered that I was wrong about it's identity! The seller wouldn't take more detailed pictures of the frame, so I had guessed, based on the Centurion article on Sheldon Brown's site, that this was a Centurion Semi-Professional or Professional frame, as it has a Tange Champion (no number) tubeset and a similar paint scheme to the (Semi-)Professional and Pro Tour bikes of that era. However, on the drive side of the bike there's a very faded cursive sticker which reads "Super Elite". I'm curious as to whether this is a bit of a wrinkle to the Centurion hierarchy, as that article seems to suggest that the Super Elite and Elite bikes were constructed from inferior tubesets- perhaps this was a development of the 80s, and the late 70s frames were constructed of similar tubesets to the top-of-the-line models, but with lesser components? The serial number on the BB shell is M7F23033, which does not seem to conform to Tom Marshall's serial number system (5 trailing digits rather than 4). The 7 might indicate that the frame was manufactured in '77, I suppose.

The paintjob has quite a few more little dings and scratches than were visible in the seller's pictures, although it's still in pretty good shape. I think I'll touch up the dings with some black enamel model paint. The decals/stickers are a bit the worse for wear from shipping, as well, and a couple more letters are missing from the Centurion lettering on the downtube. I don't know whether I want to get into trying to make some custom silver stickers to replace the missing letters at this point.. would appreciate any pointers on how difficult this might be.

In any case, I jumped the gun a bit and started getting components for the build-up assuming that that the frame was something like a Centurion Professional, and I've discovered that the brakes I picked out have recessed nutting, which this frame isn't drilled for. The front brake will fit fine on the rear brake bridge, which has a bit of a flat area on the rear side for the brake to be braced against anyway. The front brake, I'll need to find a donor nutted pivot for, as I'm afraid of drilling the frame. The headset also appears to be "indexed" or brinnelled or whatever, so I guess I'll need to replace the races. The BB axle isn't rotating freely, but I need to replace the axle anyway since I bought a different crankset from the one that would have originally been mounted. Gotta go pick up some more tools, lots of work to be done..

Treebound - I'm in Toronto. Thanks for the advice, I ended up getting a 27" wheelset that the seller of the frame had on hand. He sold them to me pretty cheap and I was surprised to discover that they actually have Sanshin Pro Am hubs on them, so I think they may have actually been taken off this very frame or one like it.

I think I'll use this thread as a bit of a journal as I go about building this thing up, hopefully it will help any other newbies who are thinking about rebuilding an old frame. Feel free also to use it to discuss anything relevant!!

RobbieTunes

The Super Elite is a pretty nice frame. Tange Champion could run from 5 to 1, and was all pretty good.

As you've said, the black touchup is pretty easy. It can also be rubbed out and waxed to where the touchup is nearly invisible.

As far as the lettering, it depends how far you want to go. Replica's can be time-consuming or expensive, but with computer's, they can be made pretty easily.
That font is not uncommon, and you may be able to duplicate all the decals on a Word or Publisher document, take it to a local sign shop and get decals made.
Back then, the quality of them wasn't so hot, so whatever you get locally may actually be far superior.

The brake issue, yes, would involve drilling, but there are great nutted calipers out there. I've done both, and you generally only have to drill out the back side of the fork and the front side of the rear brake bridge. The fork is very easy, the brake bridge, not so, because it's very difficult to get the angle straight. Some folks have simply drilled out the rear brake bridge on both sides, and used concave washers, with success, on both sides. Bear in mind, this also means drilling out a concave washer for the inner side, and this can be tricky-they heat up and deform. My take on that is that it would depend on the quality of nutted caliper you can get.

On the headset, the indexing is probably caused by moisture that sat in the headset for a while. A Richey headset is about $20, and there are plenty of used ones, all probably better than the steel version that may have come on there. To retain the original, simply clean out the races and see if you can buff off any buildup. Pits, you can't fill, but you may be able to use loose bearings and increase the number of them to make a nice smooth fit.

The rest of the frame, pretty simple. Wheels sound nice. I had some of those with Weinmann concave rims, very good.

Take your time, learn a lot, and before you know it, you're likely to have a clean, well-balanced bike that looks great.

subunit

Well, after a lot of procrastination, I've finally got most of the parts I need for this bike, finished a bicycle repair course, and have got most of the materials for restoring the frame. I spent a lot of time hmming and hawing over replacing the "Centurion" text decals on the downtube, since I couldn't find a similar font (upon close inspection I realized same-letters were slightly different from decal to decal, I'm not even sure if it was a "font" per se originally). My OCD got the better of me, so I wrapped a piece of tracing paper around the downtube, traced the remaining letters on either side, scanned the paper, and traced the letters in Illustrator. I then made a font out of those glyphs and ordered replacement chrome vinyl decals from signspecialist.com.

I've uploaded the font for anyone to use here: ********************/dl/117640132/dd3d...urion.ttf.html

If you want to use it to get decals replaced, scale them so the C is 29/32" or 23mm. I asked signspecialist to scale it so the C was 29/32" and after receiving the decals they line up perfectly over the original decals, so I think the font works pretty well.

So, after reading around the forums about doing paint touch ups and so on, my plan for restoring the frame is:

1) degrease frame
2) apply duplicolor scratch-fix filler/primer stuff to scratches lacking original primer
3) sand primer, degrease
4) testors gloss black enamel in scratches
5) rubbing compound to smooth out touch-ups
6) rough up paint job w/ scotch brite pad, degrease
7) polish chrome w/ mothers chrome polish
8) 3x coats duplicolor clearcoat
9) sand & polish clearcoat
10) apply new "Centurion" decals
11) wax & buff

The only thing I'm worried about at this point is the internal condition of the frame. The bottom bracket looks ok, but when I look in the downtube (See attached picture) I can see what looks like some red rust/corrosion, which comes away with some orange residue when I run my finger over it. The seat tube also has some brownish residue on the inside, but no residue comes off, don't think its rust. After searching for "internal corrosion" on the forums, I saw some people talking about using a "framesaver" spray, and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to use that before getting started on cleaning up the paintjob- anyone have any opinions on any of this?

Captain Blight

It is very cheap insurance. You can use actual Framesaver brand aerosol if you want; me, I thin boiled linseed oil with rubbing alcohol until it'll run through a spray bottle, and mist the inside of the tubes a couple times a day for a couple days. The alcohol evaporates leaving the BLO behind as a corrosion inhibitor. Time will tell, but this is what they used for corrosion-proofing aircraft tubesets in the Golden Age of aviation and was CAA/FAA approved (unless I've been misinformed, which is always possible). If you're really worried about it you can go after the visible little bit of rust with like bottle brushes and the like, but it's probably only surface-deep.

subunit

Looks like that framesaver stuff is nigh-impossible to get in Canada, so I'll go the boiled linseed oil route. Thanks for the suggestion!!

WNG

There are rust converters available in aerosol cans, I think Permatex sells one, and I've used their brush on version successfully. Check your local Canadian Tire.