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Old 10-08-10, 12:50 PM   #1
pstock
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Gios or.... what?

I recently posted a question asking what the markings and pantographs were on this budget frame I picked up from Belgium.
Even I should have recognized the BB and fork crowns as Gios Torino.

but since then I have been trying to figure out what it all means Dr. Freud.

I took the frame up to my local restorer thinking "OK, if by some strange quirk an actual GT got rebranded by a small belgian LBS brand, then it is worth the $500+ to put it back into shape." it does after all appear to have Columbus tubing.

Noah (Rosen) though gently disabused me of that fantasy, by pointing me to a box of old stock raw lugs and BBs some of which had the "Gt" cut outs etc. "I could build myself a Gios Torino if I wanted to."

so now I am back to the idea that a Belgian shop had a few GT scraps lying around and thy cobbled them into a frame? Does that make any sense? why would someone do that and not try to tart it up in Gios colours.

how prevalent would this practice be of using branded bits to build a generic bike? (I am particularly curious because have another Belgian/NE France shop-brand bike with Rossin dropouts and fork crowns.)

Peter
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Bosch fork lub..jpg (56.0 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg Bosch seat clamp &#.jpg (58.9 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg Bosch BB..jpg (71.8 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg Bosch store stick.jpg (68.8 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg Bosch fork sticke.jpg (68.2 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg Bosch BB join..jpg (87.6 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg Bosch fork crown..jpg (76.2 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg Bosch BB Inside..jpg (57.4 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg Bosch seattube to.jpg (65.1 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN0092..JPG (95.3 KB, 38 views)
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Old 10-08-10, 01:08 PM   #2
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With that pantographing and stay caps I'd say it's a Gios with a repaint and a shop's (Bosch) decals, but what's the threading in the BB shell?...I am surprised to hear that a box of parts laying around in any builder's bin would come pre-pantographed for any brand you wish to counterfeit: where did Noah Rosen come by his?
Edit: after looking at the pics the details look consistent with a well-made and finished frame: if some Belgian shop cobbled it up from scraps they are pretty good cobblers! It does have a Columbus steerer and some problem with the seat-tube back below the clamp eyes: distorted/dented?

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Old 10-08-10, 01:13 PM   #3
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Noah's stock would likely have come from Mike Barry's former shop, Bicycle Specialties (Toronto).

I agree, I too was surprised that a prestige frame shop would not protect their inventory and bits like weapons-grade uranium.

Now, given Mike Barry's collection of vintage bikes (huge), he could well have had a crashed Gios which he stripped and broke down.
I'll ask Mike.
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Old 10-08-10, 01:16 PM   #4
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but what would the next steps be, after the obvious BB and fork crowns, be to ID a frame?
(How can I determine the threading? I have not yet managed to remove the fixed BB cup. the shell though does measure 69mm, so I guess that's 70 and so probably Italian?)
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Old 10-08-10, 01:21 PM   #5
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dropouts

dropouts don't show any obvious markings
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Old 10-08-10, 01:52 PM   #6
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dropouts don't show any obvious markings
no, but they sure look like Campagnolo, and the rears have the Portacatena holes which only Campy produced...I say they are "Campy"...also sounds like the BB shell is 70mm so is there anything engraved on the cups such as "36 x 24"?
I'd be looking at as many pics of late '70s/early '80s Gios I could find to check on the subtle details such as: those drilled dropouts, the fork tangs and the brake bridge & chainstay bridge, how the stays and forkblades are finished where they are brazed to the DOs/ends, plus any braze-on bits...see how yours matches up to other known Gios...I have a feeling it will.

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Old 10-08-10, 02:09 PM   #7
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Every detail I can see in you photos is right for a mid 70's Gios Super Record. I can't think of any reason it would not be (at least none that make any sense).

The fork would have been exposed chrome originally. I would strip it, check for any other damage aside from the seat-tube (looks like it had a hard life). Fix, align, paint Gios blue and decal as a mid 70's Super Record.
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Old 10-08-10, 02:29 PM   #8
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With all due respect to Noah, I do think you have a well used, and somewhat neglected Gios.
Many of the features of your frame match that of the early Gios Record and Super Record frames.
I'm not sure of the color, as I've only seen them in Blue, white and black.

Funny that this should come up as there is a discussion currently going on at CR list about
Forgeries.
Gios were the targets of forgery, but the fakes were mostly sold in the US and Canada. Grant
McLean stated on CR list that a majority of them originated in Canada with some link to Miele and
Gardin bikes. When the Miele shop closed there were boxes of Gios pantographed lugs and cut out
bottom brackets. That's probably where Noah's Gios items came from.
Gios addressed the issue in one of their catalogs:
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/gios-misc/4.jpg
Marty
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Old 10-08-10, 03:26 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by lotek View Post

Funny that this should come up as there is a discussion currently going on at CR list about
Forgeries.
Gios were the targets of forgery, but the fakes were mostly sold in the US and Canada. Grant
McLean stated on CR list that a majority of them originated in Canada with some link to Miele and
Gardin bikes. When the Miele shop closed there were boxes of Gios pantographed lugs and cut out
bottom brackets. That's probably where Noah's Gios items came from.
Gios addressed the issue in one of their catalogs:
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/gios-misc/4.jpg
Marty
The "fake" Gios referenced above came much later (early 80's) than this bike and they were based on the Professional model not the Super Record. They are easily differentiated from originals as the work is really poor and obvious.
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Old 10-08-10, 03:26 PM   #10
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and interestingly, Noah's "gios" BB shells did not have a "Gt" cutout but rather the word "Gios" which might mean nothing at all. but, they were different from these ones. But then Gios might well have changed their designs over the years.
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Old 10-08-10, 03:29 PM   #11
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and interestingly, Noah's "gios" BB shells did not have a "Gt" cutout but rather the word "Gios" which might mean nothing at all. but, they were different from these ones. But then Gios might well have changed their designs over the years.
The "Gt" shell was used up to about 1977-78, the "gios" ones came later.
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Old 10-08-10, 04:09 PM   #12
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It IS a Gios.

Possibly,

1). Built by Gios for the shop/team

2). Repainted by the shop for someone who rode for the shop/team

These are both VERY common possibilities and in my opinion what makes this hobby so much fun. I would fix it (sucks about the seat tube ) and paint it, either as a GIOS or as you found it.

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Old 10-08-10, 09:15 PM   #13
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Here's what yours should like when restored:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1977-GIOS-TORINO...item33611e992b
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Old 10-09-10, 07:40 AM   #14
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I'll post this over in Framebuilders but does anyone here have any sense as to whether this seat tube ( it seems to be a fissure at the base of that cut, I"ll have to check if it is all the way through or on the surface) can be repaired? my frame painter here was distancing himself big time from it, didnt want to touch it. But I thought steel could be repaired fairly easily without replacing the entire tube.

Peter
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Old 10-09-10, 09:46 AM   #15
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I'll post this over in Framebuilders but does anyone here have any sense as to whether this seat tube ( it seems to be a fissure at the base of that cut, I"ll have to check if it is all the way through or on the surface) can be repaired? my frame painter here was distancing himself big time from it, didnt want to touch it. But I thought steel could be repaired fairly easily without replacing the entire tube.

Peter
If you want it right and are going to invest in a proper paint job then have the tube replaced. It's the easiest of the main tubes to replace. Finding a builder/painter to do the whole job would be best and most cost effective.
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Old 10-09-10, 10:04 AM   #16
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I'm particularly impressed with the workmanship on the BB shell. That's where a lot of builders don't bother filing down the lugs carefully, because it's not as visible.

Gios never cut corners.

I hope we get to see this frame in progress!
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Old 10-09-10, 11:05 AM   #17
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Drop by High Park Cycle and talk to Jan about his personal ride...it has the same look as yours but it is crudely painted yellow and has High Park Cycles stickers all over it. I'd guess that somebody back in the '80s got their mitts on some BBs and forks and made bikes out of them. If you had bought the bike here in Toronto, I would support what Noah says.

Jan's bike is always parked out front if you are afraid to venture inside...his shop is quite something but not for the weak of heart.
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Old 10-09-10, 11:18 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotek View Post
With all due respect to Noah, I do think you have a well used, and somewhat neglected Gios.
Many of the features of your frame match that of the early Gios Record and Super Record frames.
I'm not sure of the color, as I've only seen them in Blue, white and black.

Funny that this should come up as there is a discussion currently going on at CR list about
Forgeries.
Gios were the targets of forgery, but the fakes were mostly sold in the US and Canada. Grant
McLean stated on CR list that a majority of them originated in Canada with some link to Miele and
Gardin bikes. When the Miele shop closed there were boxes of Gios pantographed lugs and cut out
bottom brackets. That's probably where Noah's Gios items came from.
Gios addressed the issue in one of their catalogs:
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/gios-misc/4.jpg
Marty
Yeah, this is pretty well-known in Toronto but I've never heard of the Miele connection, just Gardin. I've seen Gardin-branded bikes with Battaglin cut-outs in the lugs and fork so there was definitely something odd going on at the Gardin shop.

A lot of Bianchis and Concordes were "assembled" by Miele, whatever that means.
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Old 10-10-10, 05:13 AM   #19
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Pstock,

David Cheakas (Southwest Frameworks) is particularly enamoured with Gios, his personal ride is a 70's Super Record.
Why don't you drop him a line and see what he thinks. He also does frame repairs/repaints etc. and has a good
formula for Gios Blue paint.

Marty
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