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  1. #1
    Ride Fast and Ride Safe! gioscinelli's Avatar
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    Paramount PDG made by Waterford in Wisconsin

    Hi, Does anyone know what tubing was used for the 1992 Paramount PDG, made by Waterford Cycles in Wisconsin? I contacted Waterford Cycles, Richard Shwinn email back, but no information about the Paramount PDG, except the year by the serial number I provided.

    I purchased the Paramount PDG on CL, not for the frame, but for the parts that were on the Paramount PDG! And, the extra parts that came along with the Paramount, which was a complete Campagnolo Record C group!

    Any information would be most appreciative from the nice people on BF!

    Thank you,

    Mike
    gioscinelli

  2. #2
    Senior Member RobbieTunes's Avatar
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    The catalog is on line, but 1992 would be Tange OS tubing, and anything from EX500 to 105 depending on Series level.

    Now, 1990, going back, may well be Columbus. PM norskagent, who has an '89.

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  3. #3
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    Mike, in early 1992 PDG switched from True Temper OS to heat treated True Temper OS. In the summer of 1993, they switched from True Temper to Reynolds 753 OS (753 is also heat treated).

    What month in 1992 was your frame built?
    - Stan

  4. #4
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
    The catalog is on line, but 1992 would be Tange OS tubing, and anything from EX500 to 105 depending on Series level.

    Now, 1990, going back, may well be Columbus. PM norskagent, who has an '89.
    Robbie, his bike is a Waterford Paramount, not a Series bike. The Series Paramounts used Tange, but the Waterford bikes were True Temper OS in 1992.
    - Stan

  5. #5
    Senior Member brandon98's Avatar
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    My wife's Waterford built 92 Paramount (46 on 650c wheels) is True Temper OS tubing. The serial number puts it as a late spring '92 build.




    B

  6. #6
    Ride Fast and Ride Safe! gioscinelli's Avatar
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    Perhaps this might help, the serial number 640EKW L92068.Thank you,

    Mike

  7. #7
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gioscinelli View Post
    Perhaps this might help, the serial number 640EKW L92068.Thank you,

    Mike
    OK, it's a 64cm frame made in November, 1992, at PDG in Waterford, WI. It would have used heat treated True Temper OS tubing.
    - Stan

  8. #8
    lurking. . . lurking. . .
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    Why have you been jumping the BIN price so much? I was watching but I think the frame may be a tad too big for me. Who knows, I may get it because the top tube length is right.

  9. #9
    Larger Chainring Oregon Southpaw's Avatar
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    Hold on a minute, you bought this bike on CL with (what looks to me like) Campy Super Record, and it came with C-Record too?

    What have you done to please the bike gods so and how can I do the same thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dovetube View Post
    At times my crotch has thought the title to this thread.

  10. #10
    Ride Fast and Ride Safe! gioscinelli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by red sox junkie View Post
    Why have you been jumping the BIN price so much? I was watching but I think the frame may be a tad too big for me. Who knows, I may get it because the top tube length is right.
    I don't know what the true value, but damn the Paramount is almost like new. To get a new custom frame these days cost around $3000, made of steel and crafted by an artisan in the USA, not some far Eastern mode of plastic. I'm trying to cover most of my cost to keep the parts. I have the Record C cranks (175mm) up for auction and the Chorus carbon cranks(175mm) on the auction block, too large for me. I appreciate the response, just want to provide the people on Ebay with the right information.

    Thank you,

    Mike

  11. #11
    Ride Fast and Ride Safe! gioscinelli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oregon Southpaw View Post
    Hold on a minute, you bought this bike on CL with (what looks to me like) Campy Super Record, and it came with C-Record too?

    What have you done to please the bike gods so and how can I do the same thing?
    The Paramount came with Chorus Carbon, 2006 along with Campagnolo Record Hubs with Mavic Openpro wheels. Plus the Record C came with Record C brifters and 8 speed cassette. Their not for sale!

    Thank you,

    Mike

  12. #12
    lurking. . . lurking. . .
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    I thought the price you put it up for is on the cheap side. I saw a BIN of $400 and then $350 and then $400 again as I looked at it throughout the day. Didn't mean to imply that you were asking too much for it!

  13. #13
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    I think that's a fair price ($400). It's a huge frame, which will probably make it a little harder to sell than if it were a 56 or 58.

    I bought this early 1994 Waterford Paramount frameset (s/n 540ALWA94012, 753 OS tubing) on eBay for a little over $500, and think I got a bargain.



    Here it is built up with 11-s Chorus:

    - Stan

  14. #14
    Ride Fast and Ride Safe! gioscinelli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooper View Post
    I think that's a fair price ($400). It's a huge frame, which will probably make it a little harder to sell than if it were a 56 or 58.

    I bought this early 1994 Waterford Paramount frameset (s/n 540ALWA94012, 753 OS tubing) on eBay for a little over $500, and think I got a bargain.



    Here it is built up with 11-s Chorus:

    WOW! That sa nice!

  15. #15
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    I was able to score a58cm '95 Waterford built with 753OS (hence a year later bike than Stan's, though no longer a "Paramount") for $480 shipped, with a full Dura Ace 9-Speed STI group in 9.5/10 condition. But yeah, that was sheer dumb luck.
    BTW, Stan, that is a gorgeous bike. Love the paint.

  16. #16
    Senior Member RobbieTunes's Avatar
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    I couldn't tell, I'm on the road (literally) and all I could see was thumbnails. Also, I haven't a clue other than regarding the Series...
    Thanks for the info. My Paramount now feels even more inferior.....

    Robbie ♪♫♪...☻

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    ...or maybe you did, and that's why you're so mad.


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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
    I couldn't tell, I'm on the road (literally) and all I could see was thumbnails. Also, I haven't a clue other than regarding the Series...
    Thanks for the info. My Paramount now feels even more inferior.....
    A lot of folks see "PDG" or the "PDG" decal and immediately think that means on of the Asian-built "Series" bikes. I had to deal with that misconception when I sold my '90 PDG OS Waterford frame and had people writing to tell me it was actually made in Asia, even when my auction description had the serial number decoded and links to the Waterford site and everything. Not to say that was your line of thinking, but thought I'd point it out since it is a common Paramount myth.

  18. #18
    Bike Junkie roccobike's Avatar
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    So I guess my PDG 3 is a Tange bike, not a Waterford. BTW, either way I'm not complaining. I just added 7X2 brifters (not shown) to see how I like riding the bike with brifters. I like it.
    Roccobike BF Official Thread Terminator

  19. #19
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
    I couldn't tell, I'm on the road (literally) and all I could see was thumbnails. Also, I haven't a clue other than regarding the Series...
    Thanks for the info. My Paramount now feels even more inferior.....
    Robbie, FWIW, I don't think of the Series Paramounts as at all inferior. The Series 5 and Series 7 Paramounts were both made by National/Panasonic and the workmanship is world class by any standard. The labor costs were a little lower in Japan than in Wisconsin at the time, and the components on the Series bikes were mid-level instead of top tier as typically spec'd by customers of the Waterford bikes (Waterford Paramounts were available only as framesets from Schwinn and were built up by the dealers with customer specified components, whereas the Series bikes came complete).
    - Stan

  20. #20
    car dodger norskagent's Avatar
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    The '89 schwinn catalog has the paramount built with OS True Temper, so I've always assumed that mine was the same. I ride it w/ original dura ace 8spd. + newer mavic wheels.
    1989 Schwinn Paramount OS
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooper View Post
    Robbie, FWIW, I don't think of the Series Paramounts as at all inferior. The Series 5 and Series 7 Paramounts were both made by National/Panasonic and the workmanship is world class by any standard. The labor costs were a little lower in Japan than in Wisconsin at the time, and the components on the Series bikes were mid-level instead of top tier as typically spec'd by customers of the Waterford bikes (Waterford Paramounts were available only as framesets from Schwinn and were built up by the dealers with customer specified components, whereas the Series bikes came complete).
    I've seen enough of both to believe the Waterford bikes are superior in terms of workmanship - not by much, but the difference is discernible, IMO. I do respect your opinion on the matter, though. And the Series bikes are consistently well built, under-appreciated, and lack nothing in terms of ride quality. They are often major bargains now (as are many of their Waterford counterparts in their own right).

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