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Old 11-09-10, 02:20 PM   #1
PolishGuy
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Cyclo (Benelux) or ? derailer.

Until I decide what type of new bike I'd like to buy, it's been changing from month to month if not week to week over the past few years, I'm thinking of adding a rear derailer to my Raleigh Trent Sports, aka poor man's Lenton Clubman. I've got it set-up now so that it suits me well for the majority of my rides. But, I would like to expand the gear range to tackle some of the hills in my area by adding a rear derailer. I've researched the old Cyclo, Hurret, Nivex, Raleigh products as well as some of the newer Shimano items but am not sure what to use. I will most likely use only two cogs on the rear wheel, it currently has a S/A FW hub, so I don't need anything too fancy. Something "period correct" would be nice but I also would like it to work well. What's your thoughts or recommendations? Thx in advance, PG.
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Old 11-09-10, 02:32 PM   #2
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The gear range of the FW is pretty wide already, and adding a derailleur would let you split those gears; if your two cogs are two teeth apart --a 20 and a 22, for example-- you'd have eight evenly spaced gears. But your gear range would be only slightly wider than it is now, and probably get you up that hill. For a wider range, it might be better to convert your four speed hub to a five speed hub.

I've used a Cyclo Benelux derailleur with two cogs on an AW, and found it to be very easy to shift and perfectly reliable once set up correctly; but setup is tricky. I had it set up with a 23T cog; not sure it would be happy with something much bigger than that.
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Old 11-09-10, 07:35 PM   #3
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Good luck finding a Cyclo-Benelux triple cog for a Sturmey hub, they are very rare these days... it took me 26 years to find this part, after the bike I built around this drive train was stolen. Thank you, jonwvara ! I have a choice now of a Sturmey Archer FW four speed or a Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite five speed to use with this cog set. Decisions, decisions, decisions........
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Old 11-09-10, 07:43 PM   #4
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Given the rarity of the Cyclo gear, may I suggest something a bit more modern, but still nicely period looking? Try a Huret Jubilee rear derailleur. Back in the 70's I rode a Raleigh Sports with a three speed sprocket on my Sturmey AW, originally with a Huret Allvit, then changed to a Jubilee. Right now, I've got the sprocket and derailleur sitting in my parts bin for when I get the AMF Hercules built.
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Old 11-09-10, 09:47 PM   #5
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Those cyclo's don't work very well, if you can find one that hasn't been trashed trying to make it work. I'm using a Huret Svelte and it looks pretty vintage and works flawlessly. Circa early 60s, I think. Cheap and easy to find, too. As soon as I get around to it, though, I'm going to change it out for a 71 campy I've got set aside.
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Old 11-10-10, 07:14 AM   #6
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I'm using a Huret Svelte and it looks pretty vintage and works flawlessly.
Any issues with using a 1/8" chain with the Svelto?

I'm planning on building up an AW with a Cyclo triple converter and the Svelto is what I want to use also.
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Old 11-10-10, 07:33 AM   #7
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This is all very interesting. How about some pics? I've got a Huret TDF coil spring derailleur from the 50's that I've been considering for use with a Sturmey AW. ( Yea, I know, not the best choice, but I think it looks pretty cool) Would be cool to see some pics of everyone's set-ups.

Edit to add pic

I what to put this:




On this


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Old 11-10-10, 07:43 AM   #8
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Likely not helpful as the frame has an RD hanger, but here's my Raleigh Grand Sports w/ AW hub and Cyclo 3-speed block. The workhorse SunTour VX RD did a fine job:





I also have a Huret Svelto in the bin for the same application, but for a more period correct look.

Neal
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Old 11-10-10, 11:42 AM   #9
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Thx for all the info so far. I'd thought about the Huret products but had gotten stuck on the Cyclo for whatever reason. I'll definately look into the Hurets further. Nice bikes too. PG.
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Old 11-10-10, 12:58 PM   #10
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Crappy lighting, but what do you want for 6:45AM. I used a standard 3 speed chain thru this:

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Old 05-17-11, 06:24 AM   #11
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Wow, My uncles new Dahon folder has an eight speed cassette/three speed setup. Nothing new huh?
So how does the cogset go onto the hub? Do you need a special cogset? I have a Huret Allvit and woulld like to put it on my wifes Sports.
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Old 05-17-11, 06:32 AM   #12
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With an AW (or similar) hub you can put two cogs on the driver; they're dished, so if you dish them away from one another the spacing is perfect. For a Sports, you want two cogs with a difference of 3 teeth, so 23-20 or 22-19. Cyclo also made 2-cog units, which are more or less the same thing as two cogs; also 3-cog units. You can find them; but frankly you're better off just doubling the cog. It improves the range only a little, but the intermediate gears are nice. So on your bigger cog you have gears 1, 2, and 3 while on the small er one you have 1 1/2, 2 1/2, and 3 1/2.

Your uncle's new Dahon has a new hub.
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Old 05-17-11, 11:54 AM   #13
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Crappy lighting, but what do you want for 6:45AM. I used a standard 3 speed chain thru this:

Huret Svelto FTW!
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Old 05-17-11, 12:26 PM   #14
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all this talk about Derailleurs and Gears lately is fun!

I think the Cyclo Standard works just fine....it just needs some serious over shifting and trimming back when changing gears.

this one is shifting 3 out of 5 cogs on a Suntour Freewheel using an 1/8" BMX chain.
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Old 05-17-11, 02:20 PM   #15
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42!
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Old 05-17-11, 05:11 PM   #16
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Until I decide what type of new bike I'd like to buy, it's been changing from month to month if not week to week over the past few years, I'm thinking of adding a rear derailer to my Raleigh Trent Sports, aka poor man's Lenton Clubman. I've got it set-up now so that it suits me well for the majority of my rides. But, I would like to expand the gear range to tackle some of the hills in my area by adding a rear derailer. I've researched the old Cyclo, Hurret, Nivex, Raleigh products as well as some of the newer Shimano items but am not sure what to use. I will most likely use only two cogs on the rear wheel, it currently has a S/A FW hub, so I don't need anything too fancy. Something "period correct" would be nice but I also would like it to work well. What's your thoughts or recommendations? Thx in advance, PG.
When you say "period correct", what year are you talking about? I'm guessing the mid-1950s or thereabouts. I'm also guessing the S-A hub would be what the bike came with originally. However, if you want a derailleur, then the Cyclo Benelux and Simplex Tour de France were what was popular on the mid-range British lightweights at the time.
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Old 05-17-11, 05:45 PM   #17
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With an AW (or similar) hub you can put two cogs on the driver; they're dished, so if you dish them away from one another the spacing is perfect. .
Hey rhm, when you say put two cogs on the driver you're talking two, three speed cogs, how is there enough room left to get the snap ring back in? Is there a spacer behind the cog? So much easier to ask than to get up and go out to the garage and look.
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Old 05-17-11, 06:01 PM   #18
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No one has mentioned the fatal flaw of any low-normal rear derailleur -- if the lever slips or the cable snaps, guess where the chain and cage go.

I had one of the wonderful and very rare 1/8" chain 14-16-18-20 Cyclo cogsets and the requisite long rear S-A rear axle. With 26" wheels and a 40T chainring, this provides 10 nicely-spaced gears and two redundancies from 39 to 99 gear-inches. Shift pattern: 20-18-16 in 1st, 20-18-16-14 in 2nd/direct, then 18-16-14 in 3rd. The only thing better would be a 38-40 dual chainring. I hated the old bandspring rear derailleurs and could never get one to cover all 4 cogs, so I installed an early Campagnolo Gran Sport, which looked better and worked beautifully.

I regret giving that 12-speed hub to a friend when I rekitted his wife's bike.
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Old 05-17-11, 06:02 PM   #19
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Why yes Carl, it does. ( I got up off my ... and looked.) I haven't actually had one apart yet. Soon.
John E, that sounds like a wonderful setup, they can't have been common?

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Old 05-17-11, 06:15 PM   #20
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No one has mentioned the fatal flaw of any low-normal rear derailleur -- if the lever slips or the cable snaps, guess where the chain and cage go.
Yes, you had to push the lever forward on the old Simplex and Benelux to go to a lower gear. I never had it go in the spokes, but I always thought it was cool that if you hit the lever with your knee when climbing out of the saddle, you'd knock yourself into a lower, not a higher gear. It's ironic that dork disks came into fashion long after those derailleurs were gone.
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Old 05-18-11, 06:01 AM   #21
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Hey rhm, when you say put two cogs on the driver you're talking two, three speed cogs, how is there enough room left to get the snap ring back in? Is there a spacer behind the cog? So much easier to ask than to get up and go out to the garage and look.
Easier to ask, mebbe, but faster go look for yourself!

But no problem. The Sturmey Archer driver has space for a thin dust cap, two 1/16" spacers, one 1/8" cog, and the snap ring. So how you arrange the 1/16" spacers you can place the cog in any of five positions to get your chain line just right, for maximum efficiency, long chain life, good karma and tail winds.

So: lose the spacers, dish the cogs away from one another, and use a derailleur.

As John E mentioned, the normal gear on the old Cyclo (and related derailleurs) is low. I don't see how this is a fatal flaw, unless the derailleur is bent. Any bent derailleur can go into the spokes, and this is bad.

If you try this, I hope you have a bench grinder! Compare the respective shape of the teeth of a modern cassette with those on a three speed cog; the former are shaped to let the chain move from cog to cog with the least effort, while the latter are shaped to keep the chain on the cog. So if you want two cogs and smooth shifting, you have to grind the teeth of the cog down to the shape of modern cassette teeth. But you only have to do this on the larger cog.
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Old 05-18-11, 08:06 AM   #22
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: So if you want two cogs and smooth shifting, you have to grind the teeth of the cog down to the shape of modern cassette teeth. .
rhm, Sweet. Makes total sense, The teeth need to be beveled, yes?

It will be a while before I get to this one but it sure is interesting!

Thanks
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Old 05-18-11, 08:12 AM   #23
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The teeth need to be beveled, yes?
I guess you could call it that. First you want to take the tips off, so the tops of the teeth are flat. Viewed from the top, each tooth is then a long, thin, rectangle. Then you take two of the corners off, so the top of each tooth becomes a long diagonal line.
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Old 05-18-11, 09:51 AM   #24
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I'm being to wonder about the wisdom of all this, not the tooth profiling but the idea of extending the gear range of of older British Bicycles. Here's my thought after 4 days of healing up after a 35 mile ride.........

On the above mentioned ride, I took my '62 Sports which has been modified a with 50's vintage clubman/lenten style drops. The bikes fits well, not perfect but rather in a vintage British kinda way. The other riders were on 70's and 80's road bikes. For the first 1/2 of the ride, the terrian was mostly flat, and slight rollers. Gearing was sufficent and I was able to remain comfortable with the pace. As the rollers turned into hills, I suffered! Thinking more gears would be the solution I began seriously thinking of the extra sprocket and Huret TDF I'd been meaning to install. Having thought about this over the last few days, I have come to realize that I'd pushed the bike well beyond its comfort zone. On high speed descents it wallowed through turns and lost momentum quickly, standing to grind up hills seemed almost pointless as walking required less effort and was probably faster. Now I'm thinking the entire bike, frame, wheels, dropbars, the entire thing is more at home on a leasurely ride around the village than a higher speed ride. What was a comfortable bike around town felt out of place ascending and descending hills. More gears will make the climb easier for sure, but will it put the bike out of its historical and intended realm?
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Old 05-18-11, 10:17 AM   #25
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I'm being to wonder about the wisdom of all this....
That hasn't been my experience, or at least I haven't noticed it. I don't know why exactly this would be-- whether your Sports frame is too soft, your wheels too heavy, or what. I've ridden a few hilly centuries (and one flat one) on my Fothergill, and though there are still some problems (doesn't track quite right; hub slips in low gear; brakes are a bit inadequate) I don't find any fundamental problem with the bike. But then it's 531, with aluminum rims, and is geared lower than a Sports (44T chain ring, 20T and 22T cogs, AG hub).
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