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Old 11-17-10, 07:41 PM   #1
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Interesting Dawes frame on ebay with "very unique" threadless BB

Anyone know what to make of this Dawes frame?

http://cgi.ebay.com/vintage-Dawes-to...item45f6cca9c2

I've never seen that kind of threadless bottom bracket--cottered, apparently. Could it really have left the factory with an unthreaded BB? And what about those braze-ons on the seatstays and chainstay?

It's too small for me, fortunately.
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Old 11-17-10, 07:49 PM   #2
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Jon, I have one of those Bayliss-Wiley "cartridge" BBs. I'm not exactly sure what keeps them in the frameset, but I suppose they're not quite "very unique."

I'd also say that frameset is bigger than 58cm given the length of the head tube.

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Old 11-17-10, 07:52 PM   #3
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Ha! I knew that putting that "very unique" quote in the post would get a rise out of you, Neal!
Thanks for the info about the bb--I'll have to visit your museum one of these days.
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Old 11-17-10, 07:53 PM   #4
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I guess it's just regular "unique" then, Jon!

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Old 11-17-10, 08:09 PM   #5
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Is that bracket on the chainstay a Simplex bracket? It seems like it would be older than '66 with that bracket.
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Old 11-17-10, 08:29 PM   #6
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Is that bracket on the chainstay a Simplex bracket? It seems like it would be older than '66 with that bracket.
I've been trying to figure that bike out too. Its gotta be pre 60's. And if it really is a 58 cm, maybe it took 26" wheels?

Another nice bike from cheeseland.
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Old 11-17-10, 11:27 PM   #7
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I compared the ebay one to my 37' Dawes. I doubt very much that it is a 60's bike.

It is certainly a repaint and the decals are new--they look like those vinyl stickers sold on fleabay. I would even guess the headbadge is not original... it probably had a decal for a headbadge as mine does.

The braze ons seem to match very well, as do the lug patterns. My seat post lug has a different curve to it at the very top. The braze-on located on the chain stay is the same as mine which has a Cyclo-Oppy derailleur, popular in the 30's/40's. I'm not saying it's that old but the similarities are there.

The fork crown is not like mine and the oil cap on the bb is also different.

I would hazzard a guess that it is 1950's.... and that really is a guess. I think the tip off for me is that the oil cap looks like ones on my other 50's English bikes.
Just my .02

Why do I get the feeling the bottom bracket "used to be" threaded?!?




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Old 11-18-10, 01:02 AM   #8
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The 1955 Dawes catalogue doesn't show any models with a Cyclo rear derailleur, so perhaps it predates 1955.
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Old 11-18-10, 03:02 AM   #9
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Be careful, Noglider will point out that there is no such thing as "very unique". According to him, something is unique or it is not. He would know better than I, so I defer to him.

I got the same feeling about the decals being replacements. So what are the chances that it is not actually 531 tubing? The frame is pretty attractive but the fork is sort of awkward looking, I like Ivandarken's fork a lot better. The way the seat stays attach to the seat lug is a little strange, but I like it.
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Old 11-18-10, 03:03 AM   #10
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i dont use ebay
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Old 11-18-10, 08:41 AM   #11
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Based on Ivandarken's photos, I'm inclined to agree it's a Dawes, and definitely not a 1966. Early 50's at the latest; with that derailleur mount 40's is more likely, if not 30's.

The BB looks to be a real oil-bath model; you line the hole in the cartridge up with the zerk in the BB shell, tighten it up with the adjusting ring, and fill 'er up.

Original headset, my elbow. Headset stacks very high; I suspect this frame came with the old clip type headset with a zerk on the top. If so, then I think there should be a zerk on the left side of the lower head lug; can't make it out in the photo.

Most intriguing is the mount on the chain stay just behind the BB. I guess its for a chain tensioner like on the Osgear or Overhill derailleur systems. Look at the photo below, which has a different rear derailleur mount anyway; so clearly not the same thing; but that braze-on must be for something of this type.
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Old 11-18-10, 09:47 AM   #12
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I thought Dawes was Birmingham - at least until they burnt down in the 70's.
Says Nottingham in the ebay blurb. Sort of odd.
Seller doesn't know his stuff; par for the ebay course.

Looking around online, I find surprisingly little info on Dawes, including no images of this particular head badge, and no old catalogs. Anyone?
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Old 11-18-10, 09:59 AM   #13
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I'm in the same boat... I have 4 Dawes and I seem to be my own best source... which isn't saying much.

I think that ebay seller is hawking some crap though. He knows enough about the bike to seem like he is omitting some very important information, like the obvious paint job and decals.

I wish we could download his pictures here so that when the auction ends this thread will make sense for future research. Anyone?
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Old 11-18-10, 10:38 AM   #14
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It looks similar to a late 1930s Dawes like the Cyclo Sports model. The model came with that derailleur mount, with a Bayliss Wiley oil bath bottom bracket, most of these braze-ons, etc. The illustration quality in older Dawes catalogues (in the Veteran Cycle Club online library) doesn't show lug/crown details very well.
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Old 11-18-10, 10:42 AM   #15
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I did some looking around for Dawes headbadge info and saw at least a couple of variations of the torch design. The one on this bike is the early version, I believe, and Velobase.com shows it as a 1950s design. Here's the 1960s version I've glued on to my Dawes tourer:



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Old 11-18-10, 10:52 AM   #16
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Neal, I see five Dawes badges on Velobase, three with torches, two without; but I don't see one like this.
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Old 11-18-10, 10:59 AM   #17
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I got the same feeling about the decals being replacements.
The decal at the base of the seat tube is a "531-respray" decal:
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Old 11-18-10, 11:04 AM   #18
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Geez I kinda wish I hadn't opened this thread. A Dawes was the first vintage bike I ever really desired.
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Old 11-18-10, 12:14 PM   #19
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Neal, I see five Dawes badges on Velobase, three with torches, two without; but I don't see one like this.
You're right. At first glance, I thought this one is close:

From the auction:


From Velobase:


But it's not!

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Old 11-18-10, 12:16 PM   #20
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Someone did a helluva job facing the BB's non-drive side.
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Old 11-18-10, 12:43 PM   #21
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^^^^^^It's odd, the facing, rather grinding appears to be done after the re-paint. Also, take a look at the image of BB, it looks like there are remains of threads slightly visible on the bottom.
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Old 11-18-10, 01:39 PM   #22
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I found this on Flickr:




the above is from a Dawes Tartan Tourist.

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Old 11-18-10, 01:42 PM   #23
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From the fork section and braze-ons, plus the Bayliss Wiley BB, this is a late 1930's Dawes. No civilian production 1939 to 1945, the factory was making war supplies, steel stock was requisitioned by the War Office and the workers were drafted into the military - some sort of unpleasantness had arisen with the Germans, Japanese, Italians and for part of the time with the Russians! All friends again now though!

Seller's got the date all wrong and it's been refinished with the "wrong" decals, but it's survived pretty well for it's age. Would have been a brilliant bike in its day. It could be 531, equally Accles & Pollack tubing - which was similar but now rarer. No real way to tell, but from a later model I once owned I believe this will be a really light steel frame. Pretty sure the frame would have had a threaded BB when built and the threads ground out in the factory to take the buyer's option of 'oil tank' BB. It's far too big for me and I don't buy oversize frames any more, also I'm having nightmares modifying the drive train on a 1985 tandem at present, but it would still make an awesome project for someone.
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Old 11-18-10, 01:44 PM   #24
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That frame's so relaxed, I got sleepy looking at it.
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Old 11-18-10, 02:08 PM   #25
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Geez I kinda wish I hadn't opened this thread. A Dawes was the first vintage bike I ever really desired.
I have a Galaxy just sitting here...
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