jjames1452 

Agree! I made a New Year promise to myself to sell all bikes I do not ride. Someone can take them outside abd enjoy them.

cale

Hooray. I did it. Sold the bike that was just memories and no more miles. I haven't lost the memories.

dddd

Call me an anti-semant. The semantics involved in bike tech discussions can have people hearing the opposite of what someone else is saying.

I'll start with "modulation", and what my understanding of the term is, relative to braking performance.

A brakeset that allows a wide range of braking force to be applied with moderate force, and with little actual motion at the lever (once the onset of braking force occurs).

Extra motion at the lever when changing the braking force level slows the rider's ability to quickly modulate (change precisely) the level of braking force accurately.

And having to apply too much force at any time also slows the rider's ability to quickly apply any increase in braking force, since, among other things, there is both extra tissue compression and muscle motion (that has to overcome the elasticity of tensed muscle/tendon tissue). This can be as bad as too much lever travel, since it ultimately has the same effect on motion resolution between hand/finger muscles and the brake's friction surfaces.

The last couple of iterations of Shimano's top-level gruppos have seen an increase in leverage engineered into the caliper, with a decrease in leverage engineered into the lever, such that the range of tension force in the cable is reduced, and the resulting range of the cable's elastic distortion is not only thus reduced, but also becomes a smaller percentage relative to the cable's actual motion.
So the resolution of motion between lever and caliper is made more precise, which improves modulation of the entire brakeset (lever, cabling and caliper, including pads).

Thinner pads with longer and stiffer "holders" also reduce the unwanted lever motion, and thus also improve modulation. I've managed to get old, long-reaching, spindly "Schwinn-Approved" Weinmann calipers to work acceptably with modern levers when I finally installed such pads, though the lever travel range during braking is still huge by modern standards.

Lastly, any friction in the cabling not only resists the communication of force from lever to caliper, but this same friction force also increases the range of elastic distortion of the cable over the whole range of braking force.

BTW, most of this modulation/resolution/communication performance between lever and caliper applies equally to derailer cabling, and thus Shimano's latest 11-speed shifters/derailers similarly operate over a much-increased cable travel range.
And perhaps analogously, the firmer brake pads of today could be considered to have been "mimicked" in the non-floating guide pulley of Shimano's most-recent 11-speed derailers, all in the name of ever-improving motion resolution.

I look forward to trying one of these new higher-leverage Shimano calipers with vintage brake levers, and similarly, perhaps even trying one of Shimano's 11-speed derailers with suitable vintage friction shifters.
After finding so much performance improvement using newer, narrower chains on vintage bike drivetrains, I'll be keeping my eyes and mind open to new possibilities of further improving the quintessential, friction-shifted and non-aero-braked vintage bike riding experience.

fietsbob

You can have it Both ways Have a Hand Built Custom frame investment cast lugged steel etc.

and have it made to take all the latest components, if that is what will Float your Boat.

Its Only Money ..

Salubrious

I understand that the early ones did have problems- I've heard that a lot! The newer ones seem to be quite effective.

Just for the record, I didn't say that Campys don't don't stop a bike, nor as gomango suggests, did I say that they are ineffective. If that were the case they would not be on my Guerciotti!

What I said was they they are not as powerful as the Zero Gs which in turn are not as powerful as the vintage GB Coureur 66s. The nice thing about the GB 66s is not so much the ultimate stopping power they give but the control; one finger is all that is needed to do the job. Naturally this is assuming new brake pads.

I am suggesting that as far as rim-style calipers are concerned that there has been nothing new under the sun since the old days- I was surprised to find out a few years ago that cantis go back to the 1930s. What's old is new again...

dddd

Since most of us may want to keep a bike's original parts, including brakes, it often comes down to the setup to make a bike's brakes feel fully adequate.

I found out years ago that when I "relaxed" a caliper's return spring(s), the perceived reduction in effort was disproportionally large, always better than expected(!).
And I'm not talking about leaving the springs so lightly pre-loaded so as to allow the levers to clatter when riding on bumpy pavement, just a perhaps 30% reduction in force getting the pads to meet the rims, which if the cables and caliper pivots move with very little friction, still leaves the cable tension sufficient to keep the levers fully returned.

On nicer calipers, I'll remove the caliper, un-hook one end of the return spring, then grasp the free end with pliers, twisting "inward" until the "splay" of the spring is seen to not go so far past the stop peg.
Then I repeat with the other end, doing he same thing so as to keep the spring balanced (for aesthetic reasons and to keep either end from slipping past the stop peg).

On cheaper bike's calipers, I may just relax the spring as part of an iterative centering process, wherein I use hammer and screwdriver (as a punch) to flex the spring down sharply from the centerbolt hub. Done repeatedly, in small increments, one can achieve fine centering and serious relaxation of the return spring at the same time.

But I always first confirm that the cabling and caliper pivot are completely free-moving before perhaps addressing the wrong source of the problem.

Relaxing the return spring has done wonders for sidepull calipers such as Nuovo Record, Weinmann, Modolo (and to a lesser degree older Shimano).

Salubrious

Another thing that I have found to be helpful is to set up the brake so its pads are not too close to the rim- to actually leave some space there, such that there is a bit of a pull when you go for the brakes. This helps increase leverage in several systems, notably Raleigh steel sidepulls found on British 3-speeds and Campys, in particular the Deltas, which were known for poor braking action. They were actually not that bad if set up with a gap.

repechage

I installed a pair of dual pivot Campagnolo Veloce dual pivots on my '86 Masi with Old Record levers. Loads of stop and good modulation. Kind of spoiling actually. I have a steep descent on my commute, much easier to haul the bike to a stop if the signal at the bottom of the hill is red.

inkandsilver

dddd, you are an amazing fount of knowledge. Thank you for your (always) interesting and informative posts.

rekmeyata

And those Ciamiillo brakes are in line price wise with Ultegra, not a bad deal considering they're also lighter and stronger than Ultegra or Dura Ace for that matter at 166 grams for the pair.

old's'cool

My concern with a large gap between the rim and the pads is the possibility of bottoming out the lever under emergency conditions. On my bikes I set the gap as small as I can get away with, without rubbing, so as to have the maximum possible braking force available, when/if needed (e.g. when rims are wet).

Dave Mayer

Amen on all of this. I have some TRP CX 9 brakes on a 'cross bike that I use for commuting. I cannot imagine brakes being much better than these. Even in the rain. Powerful and great modulation.

I also have Campy Record and Chorus differential brakes that work very well.

They are both much better than all of the vintage single pivot brakes I've used in my past - no matter what brake pads they are fitted with.

crank_addict

^ Funny mentioning braking in the rain. The wet being the equalizer between cheap vs. pricey rim caliper brakes. Low end calipers but having a quality pad and ally rims are just fine.

gomango

I'm sticking to this story.

Campy skeletons work great.

If I need a lighter caliper I'll hold off on the full rack of ribs on Friday night.

MrCoffee

My most recent experience is that today's budget priced bikes found in bike shops will perform substantially better than the budget bikes of the late '70s and early '80s. They are lighter and stiffer, with an improved geometry. Add a carbon fork on a Specialized base-model Secteur, and you will have an endurance bike that has a fit comparable to a vintage Schwinn Voyageur 11.8, yet offers a far smoother ride. Adjust for inflation, the Schwinn Voyageur would be priced at $1,035.00 with the Secteur base-model retailing for $900.00. So, the newer bike not only performs better and is lighter, it would also cost less than the vintage Schwinn when adjusted for inflation.

dddd

I'm just not getting the part about the "lighter and stiffer" newer bike having "a far smoother ride". Why would that be?

And as far as installing a carbon fork, what is the expected effect of that modification? I only ask because the material alone can't define the flexibility (lack of stiffness) of the fork itself, it's the design of the fork that makes a fork either stiff or flexible.

I agree that bikes today seem to offer a lot of features and performance at their respective price levels, but the used, high-end vintage bike can easily be purchased in most cases for the price of a new, entry-level bike like the Secteur, and will typically offer up a more resilient ride.

bcsaltchucker

just finishing up my classic bike restoring project. Kind of an eye opener to remind me of how much my late model bikes are so much better. But the old bike has a glow to it, very charming now that it looks and feels of a completely different era. And I will ride it sometimes too, just for kicks. And the whole idea of L'Eroica fascinates me too.

but riding my new-to-me 07 S Works Tarmac. wow night and day. so many modern comforts. Like not very heavy for hauling up and down the stairs to my basement shop. Modern handlebar tape padding feels just so much nicer than the Benotto cello tape on my classic bike. Deep drop bars. ergo shift and compact gearing. Also the hand force needed to operate the mid 80s campy brakes is almost cramp-inducing. Modern brake hoods so much nicer things to rest the hands on all day too. I sure don't miss the quick to fail square tapers of cranksets of the 70s and 80s! Power transfer with carbon - must be somewhat better, more like 'feels different' in a good way maybe not for all-day rides. But I also have a Ti Lynskey winter bike for when I want that kind of classic steel-ish dampened ride.

The old bikes have many advantages too. More compatibility. Everything fit everything back then (other than french threads, LOL). chains, chainwheels, bars, drivetrain was all interchangeable and simple. We would bring some wheels to a criterium and if anyone got a flat it didn't matter whose wheels they grabbed, it just worked (friction). I was a mechanic through the 80s and now I feel like I don't know enough to call myself that any more.

Salubrious

I used to do that too, and still do if I have more powerful brakes. But you also need the confidence of knowing its impossible to bottom out the lever, even if it is set loose, and with many vintage sidepulls, this is the only way to get leverage on them. The most important leverage in the braking system is in your hands, not the brakes themselves. Your fingers are more powerful partially clinched than when they are extended.
@gomango, just so we are clear, I don't think the Skeletons are bad brakes at all- I was delighted when Campy came out with them and that is why I paid the $$$ to put them on my bike (my Guerciotti is all-Campy). But when I was a kid, I had a bike with the Coureur 66s on it (way back when such things could be purchased new) and I always have remembered them fondly. Recently when I was putting a 76 Paramount together, I decided to go all-GB with the stem, handlebars and brakes, since the correct bars and stem were GB anyway. I installed modern pads on the GBs and was pleasantly surprised to find out that my memories of this brake were accurate (and not just expectation bias). I've actually considered putting them on my new Anderson stainless build as they are more powerful than any brake I have had other than disks. If you look at the construction its easy to see why. Compared to a Weinmann centerpull the leverage is double.

I've not has a chance to try the TRPs yet but they are on the radar.

rekmeyata

On top of all of that there isn't a carbon fork made yet designed for heavy touring like the forks found on bikes like the Voyager that was given for an example.

Budget price bikes from the 70's and 80's were far SUPERIOR to the budget bikes today coming out of Walmart etc, which is where budget bikes came out of in the 70's and 80's, places like Two Guys, Sears, and then Walmart. If a person wants to compare budget bikes then compare budget bikes, regardless of inflation $900 does not represent a budget bike today, in the 70's budget bikes were all hand made except for the Schwinn Varsity type of electro weld jobs. Get a budget handmade bike today and then come back and tell me how much it cost. There is more in the equation then simple inflation.

old's'cool

Not sure I follow you completely regarding "knowing its [sic] impossible to bottom out the lever".
In my case at least, I have all the strength needed in my hands to squeeze the lever to the point of fearing damage to brakes or cables, even starting with the pads already touching the rim with the lever fully extended. Perhaps part of that is my fingers are longer than average. So for me and my particular fleet of bikes and their brake setups, hand strength is not a limitation that concerns me. I hasten to add, crazy downhill riding is not something I partake of, so muscle fatigue from braking is not something I have to worry about either.

Salubrious

I test each installation to see if I can pull the cable free of the brake. I've yet to run into a brake system wherein my hands were stronger than the system. So I know I can't get in trouble by squeezing too hard- other than locking up a wheel. But on older sidepull systems, that is rarely an issue. With them its more about getting the bike to stop in a timely fashion.

rekmeyata

BS! I have several bikes with sidepull single pivot brakes and I'll put them up against any brake and they'll all stop in the same distance if all things are equal. I use to race on sidepull brakes going down mountain roads in Southern California as did all of us and as did pros did back in those days and none feared about the lack of braking a sidepull supposedly has. Braking is all about is road adhesion. I get so tired of hearing this nonsense, most of which comes from people who never had those type of brakes.

old's'cool

Hear, hear!

KonAaron Snake 

I have never had a single pivot brake that offers the ease and strength of a modern dual pivot. There's a reason that switch occurred.

gomango

Agreed.