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Is it illegal to reproduce decals for vintage frames????

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Is it illegal to reproduce decals for vintage frames????

Old 01-19-11, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by khatfull
Couldn't one make the argument that the restoration of a vintage bike has a "history" element? I mean, if I write a report on George Washington I'm not violating copyright by including his photo am I? Repro decals get made all the time for cars...why not bikes?
If you write a report and borrow a picture, you would note where the picture came from. This is a bit different.
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Old 01-19-11, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
Originally Posted by Amesja
Harley Davidson doesn't sue any people for trademark infringement when they are tattooing the copyrighted logos on their bodies...
They call that free advertising!

Neal
I knew a guy in high school who got the nike swoosh tatooed on his ankle. My friends and I thought he was really dumb.
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Old 01-19-11, 10:59 AM
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If you are seriously seeking a legal opinion, you should obtain the advice of an experienced intellectual property attorney. Answers to such questions are usually complicated.
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Old 01-19-11, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by khatfull
I mean, if I write a report on George Washington I'm not violating copyright by including his photo am I?
mmm... a photo of George Washington.

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Old 01-19-11, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by khatfull
Couldn't one make the argument that the restoration of a vintage bike has a "history" element? I mean, if I write a report on George Washington I'm not violating copyright by including his photo am I? Repro decals get made all the time for cars...why not bikes?
That takes you into the "fair use" argument, which applies to journalism, research, and scholastic use. Those only apply - up to a point - teachers, for example, used to use the "fair use" argument to copy sheet music so all students could have a copy. But it gets dicey and publishers lose money to people who copy, so districts tend to have policies that prevent teachers from copying because it takes money out of the pocket of the copyright owner. That is most likely the real 'test' (because everything else we talked about in this thread is purely academic) - and that is: what loss takes place? You or I restoring our bikes: no loss. Someone using another company's logo for reproduction decals: arguably, some sort of loss. There's a reason Nike protects the use of its logo.

In actual practice, none of this is going to stop me from the restoration, whether I purchase a bootleg decal or manufacture it myself!
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Old 01-19-11, 11:25 AM
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Even if you make replacement decals for your own personal use it is still illegal.

I snapped this picture of a neighbor being busted for making his own replacement decals for a Peugeot UO-8.

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Old 01-19-11, 11:32 AM
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For the written report it is my understanding that you need permission to include the borrowed image, and with that in mind I've also been told there is an academic usage allowance for reports written for a class and not for publication. I've also been told that "publishing" said article on some internet website might change things some.

H-Davidson Legal has gone after individuals selling their H-D engined custom bikes on the Bay and have had auctions shut down if the seller directly or indirectly included the H-Davidson name in the auction posting. The tattoo issue has been discussed many times as to why or why not does or does not H-D Legal go after tattoo shops and artists and those performing human engraving with corporate logo's.

Corporations and private individuals have gone aftter offenders and have sought retroactive recovery. I don't know any specific outcomes.

Coming to the internet to ask for legal advice is like coming here to ask for medical advice or to ask if a frame is safe to ride. Those who answer may or may not be opening themselves up to some potential liability should something happen or should someone get injured or sued. YMMV

If you're running a business then do your due diligence and keep good records. If it is just a hobby then the rules may or may not be different.

All my opinion and subject to verification or change or denial.

(Note: I'm currently in the bathroom relieving myself and I left my phone at my desk and someone else may or may not be typing this.)

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Old 01-19-11, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by love2pedal.com
Even if you make replacement decals for your own personal use it is still illegal.

I snapped this picture of a neighbor being busted for making his own replacement decals for a Peugeot UO-8.

Damned Peugeot legal department!!!
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Old 01-19-11, 12:27 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by CICLISMO_URBANO
I am restoring vintage frames original paint re-chrome and I would also like to do decals of course to complete it. I was just wondering if you produce them yourself you need some kind of license or something or can you just do it since it is something you can just buy.
IANAL, but for the best legal position, it comes down to whether the builder is still in business or not,

If the builder is still in business, then write or email them looking for decals, stating that if none are available you would like permission to reproduce the ones you have already on the bicycle.

Builders fall into five camps.

1) They have decals available and will sell them to you.
2) They don't have decals available, but do have copies of the art work from that time, and will make a copy for you, this may or may not cost money.
3) They don't have decals available, but will permit you to make your own reproductions.
4) They don't have decals available and will not permit you to make your own reproductions.
5) They have gone out of business, and it's not an issue.

The forth option is the only one that really matters, and reproducing the decals could land you in court. Mind you once decals are installed and clear coated over, it's going to be tough to prove they are reproductions, unless the reproduction is of very poor quality or the decals are on a different make or model bicycle.
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Old 01-19-11, 01:05 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Wogsterca
Builders fall into five camps.

1) They have decals available and will sell them to you.
2) They don't have decals available, but do have copies of the art work from that time, and will make a copy for you, this may or may not cost money.
3) They don't have decals available, but will permit you to make your own reproductions.
4) They don't have decals available and will not permit you to make your own reproductions.
5) They have gone out of business, and it's not an issue.

The forth option is the only one that really matters, and reproducing the decals could land you in court.
+1, that's basically how I see it as well. But there is probably a gray area as well, where a builder has gone out of business but sold their name to someone who sold it to someone else, who sold it.... For example, the Norman factory in Ashford, Kent, was started by two brothers named Norman; they sold out to TI in the 50's. TI subsequently bought Raleigh, and after 1961 the bikes labeled Norman were made by Raleigh. That ended in the early 70's. By now, even the Raleigh name has changed hands more than once. But what of the Norman name? I have no doubt someone owns it. I can only speculate who that would be, though.

Not that I'm planning to repaint my Normans, of course.
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Old 01-19-11, 01:09 PM
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I will make sure to take pictures and post some of the frames here. My intentencions is not to upgrade the sticker on the frame to make it look higher end. Some bike companies are off the map or hard to track down thats why I thought of a remake sticker. I mean there is a website where they sell remake cannondale 1980's stickers. I will probably post some pictures tonight.

This collector wants to get restored a peugeot px-10
a schwinn paramount
so I really need remake for those.
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Old 01-19-11, 01:15 PM
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copyright
trademark
and Registered trademark:
3 different things, and different rules apply.
The most important: is said trademark registered (and current, therefore legally binding) in the country in question? If not, it can't be enforced no matter how energized that company's legal department may be to protect some "intellectual property".
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Old 01-19-11, 02:54 PM
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Yes, I think you are correct. I am also fairly sure that trademarks in the US are only valid for a period of years & must be reregistered periodically to be valid.
I also do not believe that any bike company that still exists has any problem with someone restoring their vintage machines. Even people who produce decals for sale i think are in safe territory because it is more a hobby than a business. While these people may make a decent income producing decals the numbers are very very small comparatively.
Originally Posted by unworthy1
copyright
trademark
and Registered trademark:
3 different things, and different rules apply.
The most important: is said trademark registered (and current, therefore legally binding) in the country in question? If not, it can't be enforced no matter how energized that company's legal department may be to protect some "intellectual property".
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Old 01-19-11, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm
+1, that's basically how I see it as well. But there is probably a gray area as well, where a builder has gone out of business but sold their name to someone who sold it to someone else, who sold it.... For example, the Norman factory in Ashford, Kent, was started by two brothers named Norman; they sold out to TI in the 50's. TI subsequently bought Raleigh, and after 1961 the bikes labeled Norman were made by Raleigh. That ended in the early 70's. By now, even the Raleigh name has changed hands more than once. But what of the Norman name? I have no doubt someone owns it. I can only speculate who that would be, though.

Not that I'm planning to repaint my Normans, of course.
Of course, that is always possible, the company has gone out of business, and someone else owns the name and logos and stuff, in many cases Google is your friend, a quick search on Norman Cycles shows that it is owned by Raleigh which is a going concern, so contact Raleigh.
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Old 01-19-11, 05:27 PM
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[IMG][/IMG]
Imade these. Trek hasn't busted me yet. Bet they don't care.
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Old 01-19-11, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by CICLISMO_URBANO
So is there any way to have permission to remake them? or would it be legal let say if you would offer paint and decals for the same price??
The trend of your inquiry is drifting. If you need legal advice, pay for it. If the brand you need is still made, ask there first for replacements, be sure to supply documentation to show that you are not attempting to delude anyone. Tangent to this, I was watching a Masi decorated frame with a plummeting buy it now price, it is not a Masi, no one who knows the brand would confuse it for one, and the market is not interested in such fakes.
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Old 01-19-11, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by CICLISMO_URBANO
I will make sure to take pictures and post some of the frames here. My intentencions is not to upgrade the sticker on the frame to make it look higher end. Some bike companies are off the map or hard to track down thats why I thought of a remake sticker. I mean there is a website where they sell remake cannondale 1980's stickers. I will probably post some pictures tonight.

This collector wants to get restored a peugeot px-10
a schwinn paramount
so I really need remake for those.
Waterford has the Paramount transfers. They are the direct descendants to the Paramount room at Schwinn. Peugeot is out of the Bike biz essentially, ebay has a number of quality offerings listed very periodically.
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Old 01-19-11, 06:50 PM
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First of all, someone ought to get rid of this thread before it starts showing up in Google. No sense in instigating some legal department to realize that they have yet to make the C&V bike world miserable either.

Originally Posted by crazyb
I made these. Trek hasn't busted me yet. Bet they don't care.
They're also in a completely different font, so it can't be nicked for copied artwork, and only one set of transfers uses the trademarked TREK name (which can be argued is being used in the context of the term itself, and not as a brand name).

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Old 01-19-11, 06:53 PM
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Oh no! I'm in the middle of repainting a Raleigh head badge -am I violating the trademark by reproducing the pattern on the brass???

I think I need a lawyer!
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Old 01-19-11, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Amesja
I think I need a lawyer!
There will come a time when every product will come with a living lawyer in the box. Break the seal, and the lawyer will pop out and prepare your product liability lawsuit immidiately.

This concept is feasible, for lawyers are spore-based organisms, and can last for years without air.

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Old 01-19-11, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Amesja
Harley Davidson doesn't sue any people for trademark infringement when they are tattooing the copyrighted logos on their bodies...
maybe not but if your small company has a shield loosely resembling that of harley embroidered on a leather jacket for a giveaway you may hear from their legal department. (i cant recall what company it was but i believe it was only one jacket)


from professional experience most of these reproductions are illegal (if sold) but it is rarely worth the time/effort to pursue it.
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Old 01-19-11, 07:09 PM
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That is because Harley doesn't make motorcycles for profit these days -it's just a background operation to fuel their merchandising. At one time they used to race to fuel sales. Now they don't race and instead build motorcycles to fuel merchandising. Pretty soon they'll even stop doing that and keep cardboard cut-outs of motorcycles in their dealerships..err..merchandise outlets after they are moved to the shopping malls.

It's a good business if you can get into it.
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Old 01-19-11, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Amesja
That is because Harley doesn't make motorcycles for profit these days -it's just a background operation to fuel their merchandising. At one time they used to race to fuel sales. Now they don't race and instead build motorcycles to fuel merchandising. Pretty soon they'll even stop doing that and keep cardboard cut-outs of motorcycles in their <s>dealerships</s> merchandise outlets after they are moved to the shopping malls.

It's a good business if you can get into it.
that may have been a satire, but i have in fact seen a harley "dealer" in the mall.

i agree with you though. it is a great business model. harley has perfected it and john deere is right behind them. it both cases they are selling their brand, not a "product" (and this includes their whole goods business)

i am actually surprised that we have not seen apple fall in line. (they already have the branding established)
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Old 01-19-11, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Vixtor
I'm sure you can find them on the net or eBay.
+ Yes. Why go through the bother of making some fake when it costs so little for a real one?
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Old 01-19-11, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by thirdgenbird
that may have been a satire, but i have in fact seen a harley "dealer" in the mall.

i agree with you though. it is a great business model. harley has perfected it and john deere is right behind them. it both cases they are selling their brand, not a "product" (and this includes their whole goods business)

i am actually surprised that we have not seen apple fall in line. (they already have the branding established)
The difference between Apple and one-time durable goods manufacturers like Deere and Harley is that what Apple is selling is basically very expensive ice cream (or crack). You use it for a few months or maybe as long as a year and then buy another as the original product has melted and is now worthless.

At least Tractors made by Deere and Harley will last for many decades and be just as useful then as the day they were made.

Last edited by Amesja; 01-19-11 at 07:23 PM. Reason: clarity
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