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Old 01-20-11, 02:30 AM   #1
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Record or Super Record?

Are these hubs Record or Super Record? I assume Super Record according to VeloBase pics. Thanks!

Front:


Rear:



Last edited by realestvin7; 01-20-11 at 02:34 AM.
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Old 01-20-11, 05:44 AM   #2
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Record. Super Record hubs never really made it into production. You wouldn't be able to tell by looking, as Super Record hubs have titanium axles. The Super Record hubs that are out there with Ti axles may be have aftermarket axles and not ones produced by Campagnolo - i.e. the Super Record hub may not exist as other than a pre-production item.
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Old 01-20-11, 06:21 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Picchio Special View Post
Record. Super Record hubs never really made it into production. You wouldn't be able to tell by looking, as Super Record hubs have titanium axles. The Super Record hubs that are out there with Ti axles may be have aftermarket axles and not ones produced by Campagnolo - i.e. the Super Record hub may not exist as other than a pre-production item.
I'll counter Piccio by saying that the Super Record group was made up of Nuovo Record parts (hus, brake calipers, chainrings) and parts specific to the Super Record group (crankarms, brake levers, seatpost, headset). If you look up specs for the Super Record group you'll find the part numbers for the hubs are the same as Nuovo Record hub part numbers.

The Super Record group uses hubs from Nuovov Record group which leads to the question, 'if you buy a complete SR group from Campagnolo whats the official name for the hubs?" I mean, thety are from the Super Group.

There's nothing wrong with calling then SR/NR hubs or Super Record/Nuovo Record hubs.
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Old 01-20-11, 06:35 AM   #4
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I'll counter Piccio by saying that the Super Record group was made up of Nuovo Record parts (hus, brake calipers, chainrings) and parts specific to the Super Record group (crankarms, brake levers, seatpost, headset). If you look up specs for the Super Record group you'll find the part numbers for the hubs are the same as Nuovo Record hub part numbers.

The Super Record group uses hubs from Nuovov Record group which leads to the question, 'if you buy a complete SR group from Campagnolo whats the official name for the hubs?" I mean, thety are from the Super Group.

There's nothing wrong with calling then SR/NR hubs or Super Record/Nuovo Record hubs.
Some parts were named "Record" from the get-go and remained that way - the cranks were "Record," for example. The name for the hubs from the Super Record group is - "Record." Calling them "Super Record" is misleading, as there was an item that went by that name that never made it into production. The "Super Record" group had some "Record" parts from the original "Record" set of parts; some "Nuovo Record" parts from the upgrades to the "Record" parts; and some "Super Record" parts that are upgrades from the "Nuovo Record" group (there's some inconsistency in the naming of this group, by they way - it remained the "Record" group in at least some catalogs). If Velobase calls the "Record" hubs "Super Record," then Velobase is incorrect. A lot of the insistance on calling everything from the "Super Record" group "Super Record" comes, I think, from a sensibility formed by later nomenclature, when the concept of tiered, integrated (regularly reinventned) gruppos emerged in the 80's - primarily from Suntour and Shimano. Campagnolo only jumped on this bandwagon with the C-Record, Victory, etc. tiered gruppos of the mid-80's. Extending this sensibility to earlier periods results in misnamings that I think obscure a meaningful look at the way Campagnolo groups and parts developed organically over a long period of time. It also results in the misimpression that "Record and " "Nuovo Record" hubs are different items - which they're not, by and large. As you point out, the catalogs are generally consistent - parts retain their original names even when the became elements in upgraded groups. This should, I think, tell us something about the way Campagnolo considered the matter.
By and large, as vintage bike enthusiasts, I think we should stick to calling things what Campagnolo called them. It fosters clearer communication overall. I realize that day-to-day conversation ("that's what we called them back in the day") often deviates from that. But discussion of specific parts and queries from those looking to learn deserve better, IMO.

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Old 01-20-11, 07:57 AM   #5
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I missed perhaps the biggest reason not to call parts "Super" that are not, even if they are part of the SR groupset: "Super" record parts are actually different from their predecessors, usually by virtue of being lighter, I.e. having material removed or using lighter bits like titanium. Campagnolo used the term "Super" for a specific reason, and collaping the naming obscures this fact. If it ain't "souped up," it ain't "Super." - regardless of what group it's iin. Again, Campy was thinking primarily in terms of parts, not groups. That thinking came later.
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Old 01-20-11, 10:41 AM   #6
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Oh, well I was just going off the drawings/pics. See how the rear inner axle flange/nuts flare out? That was what I was basing it off of.

Record:



Super Record:


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Old 01-20-11, 12:04 PM   #7
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Super Record and Nuovo Record had the same cranks. The chainrings were different.
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Old 01-20-11, 12:22 PM   #8
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OK so is it Pajamas or Pajamas? I think someone opened a real can of worms here.

but also if Chorus and Athena share hubs, headset, bb, and shifters (atleast they used to) are you getting a complete Chorus group?
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Old 01-20-11, 01:15 PM   #9
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I've always called them Record hubs, for the fact that is what they are and was originally named. There have been changes over the years, flat to curved skewer levers, skewer nut shape, and NDS dust cap shape. No major changes when Nuovo was 'superseded' by Super.
The illustration above for Super Record show what looks like straight levers and an older cone shaped nut.
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Old 01-20-11, 01:24 PM   #10
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I've always called them Record hubs, for the fact that is what they are and was originally named. There have been changes over the years, flat to curved skewer levers, skewer nut shape, and NDS dust cap shape. No major changes when Nuovo was 'superseded' by Super.
The illustration above for Super Record show what looks like straight levers and an older cone shaped nut.
I suppose. Ef it. I just needed to know before I listed them on eBay. Went the safe route and just called the "Record". Thanks for the help guys.

Look alright? It's my first ever time to sell something bicycle related on "the Bay". I usually stick to car parts.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=120674081690
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Old 01-20-11, 04:09 PM   #11
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You list the threading as English, but the freewheel threading is, in fact, Italian. You should change the listing. The picture shows it to say 35 x 24F which means 35mm by 24 tpi. English is close, at 1.37" x 24 tpi.
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Old 01-20-11, 09:20 PM   #12
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You list the threading as English, but the freewheel threading is, in fact, Italian. You should change the listing. The picture shows it to say 35 x 24F which means 35mm by 24 tpi. English is close, at 1.37" x 24 tpi.
Crap. So the Dura-Ace freewheel that I pulled off is Italian, too?
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Old 01-20-11, 10:19 PM   #13
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Oh, well I was just going off the drawings/pics. See how the rear inner axle flange/nuts flare out? That was what I was basing it off of.

Record:



Super Record:


Middle 80's Campagnolo did indeed change the lock nut washer assembly on the hubs,
and very late the dust cap on the drive side rear hub, probably for 8 speed freewheel compatibility by Regina or Everest, maybe even themselves. To confuse things, near the end the boxes that the hubs came in were in the same blue (second blue, not to be confused with the blue boxes from very early on) as the rest of the Super Record components.

Very very late in the Super Record life Campagnolo also had a version of the "Record" crank with no stamped logo, laser etched, no arm fluting and CNC milled on the back side to address the stress riser problem that all who have any quantity of old Campagnolo are aware of or have experienced. Basically they added more beef just where they needed it, and the way it was done was not possible with the simpler turning machining done earlier. I have only seen these plain and etched arms with Super Record chainrings, so I would give it that title. I bought a set on ebay a few years ago as they went cheap, and they came in the SR blue box. kind of an acquired taste compared to the earlier design variations.

The moral of this story, save those silly boxes and instructions. And never underestimate the minor variations of Campagnolo, they made a lot, refined when needed, did not stick to "model years" .
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Old 01-20-11, 10:25 PM   #14
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looks like a solid listing to me.
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Old 01-20-11, 10:29 PM   #15
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Some parts were named "Record" from the get-go and remained that way - the cranks were "Record," for example. ...

By and large, as vintage bike enthusiasts, I think we should stick to calling things what Campagnolo called them. It fosters clearer communication overall. I realize that day-to-day conversation ("that's what we called them back in the day") often deviates from that. But discussion of specific parts and queries from those looking to learn deserve better, IMO.
It is kind of funny, in the mid 70's most Record stuff was in conversation known as Nuovo Record.... Most DID NOT CARE, they wanted to know as they understood it. Nuovo and Super they understood.
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Old 01-20-11, 10:32 PM   #16
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Thanks for the help, repechage! And thanks for telling me my listing was solid. I appreciate the input.
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Old 01-20-11, 11:28 PM   #17
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Record. Super Record hubs never really made it into production. You wouldn't be able to tell by looking, as Super Record hubs have titanium axles. The Super Record hubs that are out there with Ti axles may be have aftermarket axles and not ones produced by Campagnolo - i.e. the Super Record hub may not exist as other than a pre-production item.
Are you saying that all TI axles currently installed in these hubs are 24TPI aftermarkets?

-Kurt
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Old 01-21-11, 05:32 AM   #18
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I have only seen these plain and etched arms with Super Record chainrings, so I would give it that title.
Agree. I had a set of these - long since sold.
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Old 01-21-11, 05:59 AM   #19
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Are you saying that all TI axles currently installed in these hubs are 24TPI aftermarkets?

-Kurt
I don't know. Which is way I said "may." There may have been a small number of SR hubs that made it to market; maybe not. There are aftermarket versions for sure. There's also a version of the story whereby the original Campagnolo Ti axles were obtained by an importer, and doubtless found there way into some Campagnolo hubs from there.
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Old 01-21-11, 08:59 AM   #20
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those are some great looking wheels! I wish I could justify buying them for that price. I just have way too many and I am really trying to get away from FW hubs. they look like someone's unused race wheels from back in the day.
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Old 01-21-11, 10:26 AM   #21
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those are some great looking wheels! I wish I could justify buying them for that price. I just have way too many and I am really trying to get away from FW hubs. they look like someone's unused race wheels from back in the day.
Those rims look like the Matrix ISO II tubular rims. I still have a set. I beleive they came out in the mid-80's, when those Campy hubs were still being sold new. They have the curves skewers which work better but lack the old school charm of the straight skewers. The rims were reasonably light but braking performance on the "aero" profile rims were lousy and the C&V wheel likes and works much better with the old box cross section rims. However the new Mavic Reflex's machined braking surface are the best yet IMHO.
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Old 01-21-11, 02:07 PM   #22
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Crap. So the Dura-Ace freewheel that I pulled off is Italian, too?
Not necessarily. You can go English on Italian. But since you say "English" it's not accurate. So no, not solid, because it's not truthful. Please fix it. Now that you know the difference, small that it is, you really should be honest. Withholding information is lying. And even though you say no returns, misrepresenting your merchandise entitles the buyer to a refund. Do the right thing. And it's OK to say that they can put an English threaded freewheel on the hub.
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Old 01-21-11, 02:26 PM   #23
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Not necessarily. You can go English on Italian. But since you say "English" it's not accurate. So no, not solid, because it's not truthful. Please fix it. Now that you know the difference, small that it is, you really should be honest. Withholding information is lying. And even though you say no returns, misrepresenting your merchandise entitles the buyer to a refund. Do the right thing. And it's OK to say that they can put an English threaded freewheel on the hub.
I changed it already. You're a little behind.

The freewheel spun on very smoothly.

Am I correct in assuming that Shimano made no Dura-Ace freewheels in Italian thread?
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Old 01-21-11, 02:58 PM   #24
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Sorry, I didn't know I was supposed to keep looking at your listing.

I don't know if there were Italian threaded Dura Ace freewheels. I doubt it.
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Old 01-25-11, 12:08 PM   #25
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You can put English/ISO threaded freewheels on a hub that is Italian threaded, but the general rule of thumb is that once it's been done once, you should remain using Engish/ISO threaded freewheels on that hub from then on, not swap back and forth between the two.

98% (or better) of the 'Record' hubs that you'll find out there will have steel axles, and would have been sold with either the Nuovo Record aka 'Record' group, or with the Super Record group. As noted by the lack of any actual photos on VeloBase of the elusive Ti axle versions, they are rare, nearing on 'never existed in retail' rare. Some were probably used by the Pro teams and found to be lacking in their strength. Same reason that the Ti bottom bracket axles were discontinued after a few years.

and as a final word, if the naming convention of Campagnolo parts was simple, then they'd be called Shimano.
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