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  1. #1
    Senior Member southpawboston's Avatar
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    10mm wide axle in a 9mm wide dropout?

    Here's one I didn't anticipate:

    I kept the 27" Araya rims laced to Suzue cartridge bearing hubs from my Shogun touring frame to use on the Schwinn Voyageur frame that I received in trade for my Shogun frame (see the frame pass-around thread). The Schwinn has vertical rear dropouts, while the Shogun as horizontal dropouts. Both bikes have 126mm rear spacing. However, the rear wheel won't fit in the Schwinn dropouts because the drive side dropout has a 9mm wide opening and the axle is 10mm thick! The non-drive side dropout opening is 10mm wide and the axle fits fine.

    Here's the dilemma: the Q/R axle can't be swapped for another, because it's designed for sealed cartridge bearings. The axle flanges against which the the cartridges seat are spaced exactly for this hub.

    The only alternative I can think of is to file down the threads on the axle to create flats. 0.5mm on each side would do the trick. Is there any downside to doing this?
    Last edited by southpawboston; 01-20-11 at 09:30 AM.

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    Given that the Schwinn has one 9mm and one 10mm dropout slot, I'd be opening up the 9mm slot to 10mm.

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    If you do want to alter the frame. It's easy to file two flats on the axle and it will go right in.

  4. #4
    rhm
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
    Given that the Schwinn has one 9mm and one 10mm dropout slot, I'd be opening up the 9mm slot to 10mm.
    Same here, but how? Leading edge, trailing edge, or both? I guess it shouldn't be too hard to measure from some fixed point, such as the BB spindle.

  5. #5
    Senior Member ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
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    This is interesting, Anton. I was actually finishing up the rear fender on my '88 Voyageur last night and in doing so inserted and removed the rear wheel a dozen times. I have not cold set the frame and the 130mm Shimano 105 (5600) hub slides in without a hitch. I thought the 105 axles were 10x1. Am I wrong?

    Come to think of it, maybe I had to use a little extra push on the drive side, but at the time I would've attributed that to the 130 hub in 126 spacing.
    Last edited by ColonelJLloyd; 01-20-11 at 09:54 AM.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otis View Post
    If you do want to alter the frame. It's easy to file two flats on the axle and it will go right in.
    I think you meant, DON'T want to alter the frame. The other option is to take a metal file, and alternately give a stroke to each side of the drop out to get the extra 1mm your talking about taking .5mm off each side, and if the other DO is already 10mm, that's probably the best solution. Your only taking .5mm off each side, and 2 strokes of the file will probably do it. Just put some oil on the dropout before using the file......

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    I'd take the file to that dropout as described above. I don' think you'd be creating future problems if someone wanted to stick a different axle in there.

    Neal

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    Senior Member Grand Bois's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhm View Post
    Same here, but how? Leading edge, trailing edge, or both? I guess it shouldn't be too hard to measure from some fixed point, such as the BB spindle.
    What?

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    Senior Member ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
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    ^
    I didn't follow that either, but thought I just may not have had enough coffee yet.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member southpawboston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
    What?
    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd View Post
    ^
    I didn't follow that either, but thought I just may not have had enough coffee yet.
    Rudi brought up a good point. Assuming the dropouts are perfectly aligned to keep the wheel centered laterally between the chainstays, if you file the leading edge (front edge) of the DO, the wheel will point to the left. If you file the trailing (rear) edge of the DO, the wheel will point to the right. Theoretically, both edges should be filed equally to maintain axle alignment (assuming the axle fits snugly within the DO). A tiny amount of filing might not sound like a lot, but when you do the math, that can cause the tire's lateral position be several mm between the chainstays. By my rough calculations, for each 1mm you move the axle longitudinally in one dropout, it will cause the tire to move laterally by 5mm. (axle = 126mm. wheel diameter = 630. 630/126=5).

    When you have horizontal DOs, this is all moot because you judge how centered the wheel is by eyeballing the tire between the chainstays (at least that's how I do it) and the horizontal DOs provide infinite adjustment for that. But with vertical dropouts, that parameter is non-adjustable. Therefore the dropouts have to be very carefully aligned to keep the wheel centered.

    However, if I file 0.5mm off of the axle (on both edges, to be symmetrical), I won't even be removing any of the core metal, only the threads. That shouldn't affect the structural integrity of the axle, should it? Maybe I need another cup of coffee before I think about that one!
    Last edited by southpawboston; 01-20-11 at 10:31 AM.

  11. #11
    rhm
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpawboston View Post
    Rudi asked a very good question. Assuming the dropouts are perfectly aligned to keep the wheel centered between the chainstays, if you file the leading edge (front edge) of the DO, you will the wheel will point to the left. If you file the trailing (rear) edge of the DO, the wheel will point to the right. Theoretically, both edges should be filed equally to maintain axle alignment. A tiny amount of filing might not sound like a lot, but when you do the math, that can cause the tire's lateral position be several mm between the chainstays.
    Yep. We east coast people have already had our coffee today!

    The drive side dropout gets a lot more forward pull than the non-drive side; it could be that the non-drive side dropout was intentionally made to fit a little more loosely so one could adjust the wheel placement a little bit.

  12. #12
    Seņor Member USAZorro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpawboston View Post
    Rudi asked a very good question. Assuming the dropouts are perfectly aligned to keep the wheel centered laterally between the chainstays, if you file the leading edge (front edge) of the DO, the wheel will point to the left. If you file the trailing (rear) edge of the DO, the wheel will point to the right. Theoretically, both edges should be filed equally to maintain axle alignment (assuming the axle fits snugly within the DO). A tiny amount of filing might not sound like a lot, but when you do the math, that can cause the tire's lateral position be several mm between the chainstays. By my rough calculations, for each 1mm you move the axle longitudinally in one dropout, it will cause the tire to move laterally by 5mm. (axle = 126mm. wheel diameter = 630. 630/126=5).
    I'm still not following the reasoning of why this is an issue if the dropout is horizontal. If it's not, then ok, I get it..
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  13. #13
    Senior Member southpawboston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
    I'm still not following the reasoning of why this is an issue if the dropout is horizontal. If it's not, then ok, I get it..
    I edited my text above to explain this. You're right, if you have a horizontal DO, it's not an issue.

  14. #14
    Senior Member southpawboston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhm View Post
    Yep. We east coast people have already had our coffee today!

    The drive side dropout gets a lot more forward pull than the non-drive side; it could be that the non-drive side dropout was intentionally made to fit a little more loosely so one could adjust the wheel placement a little bit.
    Good point! If we can assume that the drive-side sees the axle pushing on the leading edge of the DO, then it should be safe to file the trailing edge of the DO and not mess anything up.

  15. #15
    rhm
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpawboston View Post
    I edited my text above to explain this. You're right, if you have a horizontal DO, it's not an issue.
    It's actually more of an issue if the DO is horizontal, because the upper edges of the right and left dropouts have to be perfectly aligned. If one is higher than the other, the wheel will meet the ground at a (mildly) oblique angle. For this reason, Sheldon Brown recommended that any time you file horizontal dropouts, you file only the lower edge.

    Quote Originally Posted by southpawboston View Post
    If we can assume that the drive-side sees the axle pushing on the leading edge of the DO, then it should be safe to file the trailing edge of the DO and not mess anything up.
    Yeah... but I think I'd take some measurements before filing anything, just to be sure.
    Last edited by rhm; 01-20-11 at 10:35 AM.

  16. #16
    Seņor Member USAZorro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhm View Post
    It's actually more of an issue if the DO is horizontal, because the upper edges of the right and left dropouts have to be perfectly aligned. If one is higher than the other, the wheel will meet the ground at a (mildly) oblique angle. For this reason, Sheldon Brown recommended that any time you file horizontal dropouts, you file only the lower edge.
    Makes sense... presuming the frame is perfectly aligned to start with.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member southpawboston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhm View Post
    It's actually more of an issue if the DO is horizontal, because the upper edges of the right and left dropouts have to be perfectly aligned. If one is higher than the other, the wheel will meet the ground at a (mildly) oblique angle. For this reason, Sheldon Brown recommended that any time you file horizontal dropouts, you file only the lower edge.
    Well, we're talking about the same problem but in different spacial planes. The problem with the vertical DOs manifests in the form of wheel toe angle changes. With horizontal DOs, the problem is in changes in wheel camber angle.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhm View Post
    Same here, but how? Leading edge, trailing edge, or both? I guess it shouldn't be too hard to measure from some fixed point, such as the BB spindle.
    Given that rear dropouts should be square, .5mm off each, it the dropouts are not square, you have bigger problems.

  19. #19
    Senior Member southpawboston's Avatar
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    Update:

    The plot thickens! Well, not really. It's actually unraveling. AZORCH, with whom I traded for the Schwinn, checked out the original wheelset which he kept from the Voyageur (Wolber 58s laced to Normandy hubs). The drive-side axle threads are mushed to fit in the DO. He never realized this until I asked him to inspect them, and sent me this picture that he took upon inspection. (Again, working with AZORCH in this trade was stellar, and this dropout conundrum does not reflect on him at all!!!). So basically, it seems that the frame was built with a DO that is 1mm too narrow, or perhaps had a casting burr, or something, that got overlooked and the wheelset just got jammed in there during initial assembly. It obviously hasn't caused any problems with the wheel alignment. So I'm just going to file down the threads a tiny bit, enough for the axle to fit snugly in the DO, and call it good.
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  20. #20
    Senior Member ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
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    ^ So you think this issue is specific to your frame? That would make sense as mine does not have that issue (not to mention that having a 9mm dropout on one side and a 10mm on the other is at the very least inconvenient). I disassembled and cleaned the original rear hub and did not notice that the axle threads were "mushed", at least not at the ends.
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  21. #21
    Senior Member southpawboston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd View Post
    ^ So you think this issue is specific to your frame? That would make sense as mine does not have that issue (not to mention that having a 9mm dropout on one side and a 10mm on the other is at the very least inconvenient). I disassembled and cleaned the original rear hub and did not notice that the axle threads were "mushed", at least not at the ends.
    Yup, I suspect this issue is specific to this frame. Makes sense, right?

  22. #22
    Senior Member ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpawboston View Post
    Yup, I suspect this issue is specific to this frame. Makes sense, right?
    Yessir.
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