scozim 

Ok - this latest French project may drive me insane. But I'm still going at it. It's got cottered cranks and I'm going to convert to non-cottered. The problem is getting the cotters out so I can take the cranks out.

Here's what's happened. Had I known a cotter press was going to show up for Christmas I wouldn't be in this predicament.

First thing I kick myself over is not using a c-press or something else. Instead, I tried Sheldon's hammer method. Well, the cotters are rusted in place and soft and the hammer just mushroomed the threaded ends of the cotter. Next step was to try drilling them out - one is not looking very good and the other is ok.

The non-drive side threaded end is flush with the crank arm opening so the cotter press doesn't have enough room to push it through before being stopped by the crank arm. I tried a bolt wedged between the press and the cotter but it wants to twist a little and won't budge the cotter at all.

Finally, I tried heating the thing with a propane torch tonight. Even that wouldn't get the cotter to move.

Do I have any options short of just cutting the spindle?

Bianchigirll 

have you considered drilling from the other end to make the hole thing hollow? maybe if you drill a pilot hole then drill a hole with a bit about 3/4 the dia. of cotter.

or drill a hole in the threaded end and screw a hardened bolt into it, to give the press something to push on.

auchencrow

You need to beat it out with a drift pin, while supporting the underside of the arm with a solid steel brace that itself reacts against something solid.

clubman 

This is the ticket. And sweating. And cursing. And multiple bits.

Henry III

I always left the nuts on the cotterpin bolts instead of hammering directly on the bolt. But that doesn't help much now. lol. Do you want to keep the cottered cranks? I would bust out the drill and go at it otherwise. I hate cottered cranks with a passion. Just think of your Mother-in-law if you have one and it should come out in a matter of minutes. It did for me.

treebound 

An old anvil bolted to a portable stump works well for something to pound against.

What do you want to save? If not the crankarms then look at splitting or cutting them. If you don't care about the spindle nor the crankarms then start hacksawing or get out a reciprocating saw with a metal cutting blade, just be carefull about the BB cups and lockring unless you don't care about those either.

If you chop off the drive side then you can just leave the other crank attached to the remnant of the spindle.

scozim 

Yeah, dummy me started the drilling on the drive side on the threaded end - it's now almost down to the spindle. The non-drive side I'm past the crank arm level drilling from the non-threaded end (smarter move I think). I figured that would relieve some pressure but - nope, no budging.

Check on the first two, back to the store tomorrow for more bits.

Problem is I actually like my mother-in-law, so I'll have to figure out another motivating force.

Initially I thought I would save the cranks and put them in my display case. Now, I don't really care because I'm not going to re-use them. However, I was hoping to keep the spindle. I'm not that attached to it, though, so cutting may end up being a possibility if I break more drill bits.

sciencemonster

Drill it out, and it will pop out with a tap of the hammer. Way easiest...it's soft metal. If you are breaking bits, then you need to read up on drill bits, drills, and cutting oil. You should never break a bit, and if you do, you are doing something wrong.

1) Expensive, sharp, hardened bit.
2) Pilot hole.
3) Fast drill.
4) Cutting oil.
5) Go slow.
6) Go slow.
7) Go slow.

Schwinnsta

If you have access to a good vice or perhaps even a stout pipe clamp, place a socket on the opposite side of threaded end, over cotter, then try to press it out. This assumes there is enough metal left on threaded side.

Post some pics.

EddyR

Back in the late 40's and then the early 50 when I was a kid I used a huge C- clamp to push them out. Worked every time. They were not 50 years old and rusted as they would be today. I never beat on one with a hammer..
Ed

Pawl

if cotters are going to be encountered often i recommend getting a cotter press tool from bike smith, works like a charm

randyjawa 

Best advice, coupled with a press for removal and installation. But it is a little late for that for the OP.

You are dealing with three different metal hardness-es - a soft cotter pin, a harder crank arm and a really really hard spindle. The chances of breaking bits is high, even for a skilled person. With that in mind...

Flatten out the non-threaded end of the cotter(use a file to smooth it, not a hammer to flatten it). Now, do your best to center punch where you want to start drilling. The middle, of the filed flat, is about right. Use lubrication and a very small drill bit, say 1/8". Drill all the way through the length of the cotter pin.

With that pilot hole drilled, get a slightly larger bit, say 3/16" and pass that bit through the hole. Repeat with a slightly larger bit until you think you are hitting the crank arm or spindle. Stop immediately at that point.

Now try tapping the cotter pin out from the threaded end.

This is how I go about it. Patience is, indeed, a virtue in this exercise. So is perseverance.

Good luck.

rhm

Could you tell us a little more about this crank that's causing all the aggravation? I mean, there are cottered cranks, and there are cottered cranks. If this is on a nice bike, it may well be a nice crank, and worth taking care to not damage it.

nlerner

I've had to drill out a couple of stubborn drive-side cotters in the last year. Brand new bits are key as well as a high-speed drill (i.e., my cordless drill isn't up to the task) and a bench vise for holding everything firm. I even had one in which I had drilled clean through that cotter, first with a small bit and then larger, and it still didn't come loose (even after riding the bike around for quite a long time). Finally, when I used the largest bit I could without damaging the crankset, it gave way. Now that's stubborn.

Neal

Grand Bois

You're going to love your new cotter press after all this!

scozim 

It's an early 70's Peugeot PL8 that my dad gave me. Not sure what the cranks are - I've seen them on other bikes. They'll clean up nicely once I get them off. Here's a photo I took right after getting the dirty, grungy bike. It's been cleaned up alot since then.

Amesja

Wow, that is stubborn! Yikes.

I would have thought that a small hole drilled all the way through at that point would have easily allowed it to come loose straight away. Perhaps I might have tried at that point to tap that hole for threads and then screwed in a hardened bolt and tried pressing the whole assembly out again. I'd be afraid of damaging the crank by drilling it any larger since the cotter channel is so asymmetrical and it's hard to tell what is going on when you can't see the wedge. I'm a chicken -and I don't have easy access to a drill press which makes precision drilling pretty darn hard for me.

Did this issue happen after using an actual cotter press such as the BikeSmith, and having the tool fail to do the job? I was thinking of getting one of those but if it still fails to do the job sometimes I might just stick with the hammer method which has never failed me to date (although I've only done it a few times).

Grand Bois

The Bikesmith press makes it almost foolproof. When I install new cotters, I always file them. Getting the two cotters to protrude the same amount may involve removing and reinstalling them several times. I think I would make a mess of the cotters if I was using a hammer on them. Using the press makes it easy and leaves no marks on the cotters or crank.

I may be in the minority, but I think that cottered cranks can be beautiful.

blaise_f

+1 @ leaving nut on the cotter if you're hammering. That said, hammering is the worst way to remove or replace a cotter, imo. You can very easily "strip out" the cotter hole if it's a continual thing. C-clamp if you lack a press.

Cotter presses won't mushroom steel because of the fluidity of the press. You can make your own cotter press if you're a good welder, or save yourself the trouble and buy bikesmith's. Since you've already forgone the ability to use a c-clamp, a press will give you more static results (where you may drill through the crank-arm if you aren't perfectly sound). If the bolt head is too mushroomed to grab with a cotter press, you can always stick something between the press-bolt and the cotter being pressed out.

Grand Bois

[QUOTE=blaise_f;12139684 If the bolt head is too mushroomed to grab with a cotter press, you can always stick something between the press-bolt and the cotter being pressed out.[/QUOTE]

He's no fool. He said in his first post that he already tried that.

nlerner

Yup, I did use Mark's cotter press first, but the problem is that the older Raleigh crankset has very little room between the chain ring and the cotter. As a result, the cotter press doesn't quite line up directly on the cotter. I've run into that problem a couple of times.

Neal

Amesja

I've never re-used a cotter that I've hammered out. I figure it's toast after that rapid compression -mushroomed to a degree that a press won't do to it because it is a long slow push rather than an impact. I can't trust it after that.

As for the hitting, I just back the nut off until it is flush with the bolt end and give it a good solid whack. Once it starts to move it keeps on moving even after that first whack pushes the nut back to the crank arm. Just back it off a little more an hit it again. That first whack is the critical one.

But I really want to buy a Wintersmith Cotter Press. It's on the list of things I would like to have if I end up doing much more work on C&V bikes with cottered cranks.

scozim 

By all means, the Bikesmith press has been awesome. It made working on my Gitane so easy. My problem was not knowing it was going to show up - the family budge has been tight and, frankly, I was surprised my wife got it for me. That doesn't matter now. The slow drilling and patience will continue until I can get these things out. Looking at these cranks has me contemplating if I even want to switch to non-cottered cranks. The one thing I love about these and the ones on my Gitane is they polish up so nicely.

Grand Bois

Is that big ring bolted to the crank? If so, I think you could use Stronglight/T.A./nervar alloy rings. It would save a little weight, but mostly it would look cool and be different. I've read that they did that "back in the day" when some racers didn't trust cotterless aluminum cranks. You'd lose the benefit of having steel rings that last practically forever, though.

JohnDThompson 

Spindles are hardened steel and quite difficult to cut. Keep working on the pin; it's bound to be easier than cutting the spindle.